Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 13-09-2014, 17:22   #1
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 30,799
Getting Chain Out of the Bow

I am unhappy with how much green water I've been getting over the bow, and have decided that maybe I've got too much weight up there. I'm also desperately seeking better upwind performance, and weight in the bow is an enemy of that.

I have 100 meters (330 feet) of 12mm (1/2") chain, which weighs 330kg (or more than 700 pounds).

I have needed all this chain from time to time -- for example, anchored out in 15 to 20 meters of water (at high tide) in Ushant in a howling gale, for several days. Boy was I glad to have all that chain -- which was nearly bar tight. When you anchor where there is a big tidal range (14 meters in some places in the Bay of St. Malo!), you will inevitably be in very deep water at high tide.

So what do I do?

I thought about taking off half of it to make 50 meters, then splicing on 50 (or 100 meters) of 24mm polyester octoplait. Chucking the cut-off 50 meters in the bilge, and buy a removable link so that I can pull it out and splice it back on if I end up in Ushant again in a gale.

But will I ever bother to pull it out of the bilge? I doubt it. I will be stuck with chain/rope, and the rope part bothers me with the risk of chafe, risk of being cut by a prop, etc. On the plus side, you get some stretch and don't need a snubber.

Or maybe change to 10mm G70? The Dashew approach. But here I would be unable to regalvanize the chain, and is it more brittle? I always thought chain should be beefy and not too hard, beefy so that it keeps its strength after some years of use and some erosion.

What to do?
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-09-2014, 18:08   #2
Moderator
 
DoubleWhisky's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Home at Warsaw, Poland, boat in Eastern Med
Boat: Ocean Star 56.1 LR
Posts: 1,841
Re: Getting Chain Out of the Bow

Will Your windlass accept different gypsy?
Changing to G70 will give You almost 100 kg gain and it is a lot, but replacing the windlass seems to be an excessive payment for me...

One thing is quite sure for me - the chain in the bilge will remain a ballast forever.
Can't imagine taking up 165 kg of steel from bilge to the bow in emergency...
With G70 You will have 235 kg of chain on the bow, with 50 m. of the G40 it will be 165 kg - difference of 70 kg.
I would prefer to have 70 kg more on the bow, than have 165 kg of crucial safety equipement stored in the bilge, with no easy way to get it up and deploy.
And think about all damage it can do to the interior of the boat if You ever really need to get it up in really bad weather...

Cheers,

Tomasz
DoubleWhisky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-09-2014, 18:15   #3
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: C.L.O.D.
Posts: 12,458
Re: Getting Chain Out of the Bow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I am unhappy with how much green water I've been getting over the bow, and have decided that maybe I've got too much weight up there. I'm also desperately seeking better upwind performance, and weight in the bow is an enemy of that.

I have 100 meters (330 feet) of 12mm (1/2") chain, which weighs 330kg (or more than 700 pounds).

I have needed all this chain from time to time -- for example, anchored out in 15 to 20 meters of water (at high tide) in Ushant in a howling gale, for several days. Boy was I glad to have all that chain -- which was nearly bar tight. When you anchor where there is a big tidal range (14 meters in some places in the Bay of St. Malo!), you will inevitably be in very deep water at high tide.

So what do I do?

I thought about taking off half of it to make 50 meters, then splicing on 50 (or 100 meters) of 24mm polyester octoplait. Chucking the cut-off 50 meters in the bilge, and buy a removable link so that I can pull it out and splice it back on if I end up in Ushant again in a gale.

But will I ever bother to pull it out of the bilge? I doubt it. I will be stuck with chain/rope, and the rope part bothers me with the risk of chafe, risk of being cut by a prop, etc. On the plus side, you get some stretch and don't need a snubber.

Or maybe change to 10mm G70? The Dashew approach. But here I would be unable to regalvanize the chain, and is it more brittle? I always thought chain should be beefy and not too hard, beefy so that it keeps its strength after some years of use and some erosion.

What to do?
Some of life's eternal questions and isn't unhappiness due to unattainable expectations

You could come to grips with the green water and be happy it is washing down the foredeck without you lifting a finger and also be happy with less windward performance - be a gentlemen sailor.

OK the above maybe be unhelpful and I fully understand you desire to reduce the weight at the pointy end. In my case, I opted for 50 metres of chain and 50 of nylon of the reasoning that I would rarely use the last 50 metres and if I had to, then I would accept the challenge of chafe prevention. The advantage of weight saving on every outing was greater than the very occasional need to be chafe vigilant. YMMV.

The very occasional need for 100 metres of chain could be looked at this way - oh heck, wind is getting up and I might need more all chain rode tonight (or even right away) so let me deploy the nylon while I fuss about and get that extra chain out of the bilge. Oh look, it only took 30 minutes to get that chain out and ready to shackle on, let's get the 50m of nylon back aboard, attach the reserve 50m of chain and re-deploy the now all chain rode.

In addition, you has separated your chain into 50m of active (partly worn) rode and a spare 50m of "new" rode.

The problems of moving the weight towards amidships are very great but not insurmountable; it just that most of us can't be bothered.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 13-09-2014, 18:23   #4
Registered User
 
UNCIVILIZED's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Up the mast, looking for clean wind.
Boat: Currently Shopping, & Heavily in LUST!
Posts: 5,629
Re: Getting Chain Out of the Bow

When you say 1/2", are you talking G40/G43, or BBB/Proof Coil? As if it's the latter, going to the former will definitely save you some weight. Also, is there any option of moving your windlass aft, & doing the same with your chain locker.

Such might even entail putting a set of heavy duty, vertical rollers a foot or three back from the bow, & then putting a vertical windlass on the side decks, further aft. With a locker directly underneath, or to a chain pipe to redirect your rode to where you'd prefer it.

If you can get a hold of them, one of the Dashew's videos actually shows their windlass & rode set up this way. Though one has to pay attention to the footage, or you'll miss said detail.

I'm not having the greatest luck finding pictures of your roller & bow configuration, so if you could post a few that'd help a lot. Ditto on the forward interior layout, so that some of us might take a poke at a viable location for a chain locker further aft than where yours is now.

Also, while I don't have any personal experience with splicing links, I've been warned away from them. The stated reason being that they're a good bit weaker than the chain they're connecting.
And as to chain possessing inherent "stretch", methinks that if you're pushing your chain that hard then:
- it's undersized
- you're not using a snubber, & or it's not doing it's job
Particularly, as if you've pushed your chain hard enough to stretch it, you've already damaged it (as in it's very makeup, molecularly). And thus it's suspect/no longer worth of any serious anchoring duties.

Have you by chance tried to contact the Dashews, or other large vessel owners about this issue, directly? Odds are they've some insights which those of us in "little" boats don't. So would, I'd think, builders of large, high quality, yachts.
__________________

The Uncommon Thing, The Hard Thing, The Important Thing (in Life): Making Promises to Yourself, And Keeping Them.
UNCIVILIZED is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-09-2014, 18:35   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Australia, Hervey Bay QLD
Boat: Boden 36 Triple chine long keel steel, named Nekeyah
Posts: 898
Re: Getting Chain Out of the Bow

From another angle, I have made a device to pull chain from the chain locker in the bow, horizontally under the sole and deposit it in the middle bilge.
The device consists of a gypsy driven by a 12 volt motor through a hydrostatic clutch from a car's cooling fan. This means that the gypsy can be stalled with the motor still running and that the gypsy freewheels when the motor is not running. There is about a 10 lb drag on the chain. The drag can be adjusted by adding extra oil to the clutch.
It will be wired to operate when the windlass is working.
I have run it in the workshop and it operates fine. Remains to see how it will work on the boat but it should be OK.

Regards,
Richard.
boden36 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-09-2014, 18:48   #6
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29 49.16 N 82 25.82 W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 15,396
Re: Getting Chain Out of the Bow

I agree with the benefits of moving weight out of the bow but am not a fan of cutting chain.

My plan is to put a pipe in the floor of the chain locker and build a second chain locker lower and further back from the bow. When cruising can leave some chain in the upper chain locker and drop the rest lower. On a passage I can drop the chain to the lower locker and put a cap on the pipe to keep the bilges dry.

In addition to better upwind performance when I moved weight out of the bow of my last boat it also increased comfort by reduced pitching.
__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
Sometimes it's necessary to state the obvious for the benefit of the oblivious.
Rust is the poor man's Loctite.
skipmac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-09-2014, 18:55   #7
Registered User
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 23,694
Re: Getting Chain Out of the Bow

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
I agree with the benefits of moving weight out of the bow but am not a fan of cutting chain.

My plan is to put a pipe in the floor of the chain locker and build a second chain locker lower and further back from the bow. When cruising can leave some chain in the upper chain locker and drop the rest lower. On a passage I can drop the chain to the lower locker and put a cap on the pipe to keep the bilges dry.

In addition to better upwind performance when I moved weight out of the bow of my last boat it also increased comfort by reduced pitching.
I'm not a big fan of getting rid of chain either. It remains to be seen if the chain is the cause of the green water also.
Beware that chain pipes often don't work well at all. Tried it on two different boats (because I read the "how to" cruising books too much!) Chain jammed, wouldn't go down or sometimes go up etc. These were pretty vertical pipes too.
Personally I'd opt for 150-200 of chain with nylon backup if I had to do that.
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 13-09-2014, 20:26   #8
Registered User
 
UNCIVILIZED's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Up the mast, looking for clean wind.
Boat: Currently Shopping, & Heavily in LUST!
Posts: 5,629
Re: Getting Chain Out of the Bow

skipmac,
I love your idea. To take it one step further, you could take a spare pipe cap, cut it in half & have tabs welded onto it. Then drill & tap the tabs so the 2 halves could be bolted together. And file a slot into the center of the cap to fit the chain's profile.
Then when you bolt it around the chain, put a little putty on the links; in, above, & below the cap to make it totally water tight.
Thus, there'd be little need to cut the chain in order to separate the two lockers.

Or, one could simply install a swivel in the chain at that point. So it'd be easy to separate the 2 sections. KISS

boden36,
Interesting idea. I'd be curious to hear how it works out. It's certainly an ingenious idea. Do you have enough capacity in your bilges for both the chain, as well as the water which would/will accompany it? And I'd LOVE to see pics or a sketch.
__________________

The Uncommon Thing, The Hard Thing, The Important Thing (in Life): Making Promises to Yourself, And Keeping Them.
UNCIVILIZED is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-09-2014, 20:47   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Novato, California
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 288
Re: Getting Chain Out of the Bow

As boden36 commented you can run chain from the bow to some point amidship. You don't have to run all your chain there. Some people keep around 150 feet in the forward chain locker and run the rest amidship through some pvc.

boden's idea of using "a gypsy driven by a 12 volt motor through a hydrostatic clutch" to pull the chain is awesome. I was wondering how to accomplish this if gravity wasn't enough.

Even with scope you rarely use over 150 feet of chain and by doing this you don't have to cut the chain to keep the extra weight out of the bow. Assuming the last 150 feet of the chain is virtually unused in a few years you can reverse the chain and get more life out of it.

My boat is currently on the hard and doing this is in my refit plan. Before pulling her out of the water my 300 feet of chain would cause marbles to roll to the bow. :-)
kentobin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-09-2014, 22:58   #10
Registered User
 
TeddyDiver's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arctic Ocean
Boat: Under construction 35' ketch (and +3 smaller)
Posts: 2,421
Images: 2
Re: Getting Chain Out of the Bow

In my build the windlass comes right in front of the main mast and the chainwell down below it in the bilge. This is 11' from the bow which is quite good considering the LOD of 35'.
TeddyDiver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-09-2014, 23:16   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Thailand / Malaysia
Boat: Aluminium 44' cutter-ketch
Posts: 50
Images: 3
Re: Getting Chain Out of the Bow

In reply to Dockhead,
Have you considered the installation of a second chain locker. Rather than storing the cut or second length of chain in the bilge, a second chain locker will permit the cut-off length to be available to extend the length of your primary anchor rode at short notice. Permit me to explain.

My boat has two chain lockers. One is located at the bow in the standard position. This chain locker is separated from the v-berth and cabin by a fully welded collision bulkhead. The locker is big enough to easily carry my 110mtrs of 10mm chain plus two stowed backup anchors. The primary anchor is carried on deck on the bow roller.

There is a second purpose built chain locker located under and to the rear of the V-berth. I currently carry another 40mtrs of 10mm chain here in a locker space that is designed to carry up to 100 mtrs. This 2nd length of chain can be pulled to the deck through a purpose designed hawse pipe and thereafter quickly joined to the tail/bitter end of the primary anchor chain. The haws pipe is positioned approximately 4 meters from the bow roller. Weigh and distribution of the second rode is kept low in the hull and contributes to the ballasted design.

I carry several Gunnebo G-Link G-10-10 connectors (8,800 safe working load - proof tested to x2.5 times the WL) but need just one connector to quickly join the two lengths of chain with minimal tools. Thereafter 150mtrs of anchor rode is available. I expect its enough.

Footnote: The boat was designed for high latitude expedition sailing in challenging winter conditions.
Jaden44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-09-2014, 01:15   #12
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Boat: Bestevaer.
Posts: 12,578
Re: Getting Chain Out of the Bow

I think your best solution is go with 10mm G7 chain. The only change you will need is a new gypsy and the weight savings are considerable.

Steve Dashew uses 3/8 (9.6 mm) G7 and a 110 kg Rocna on his 83 foot FPB. This has a 39T displacement. As you know, he likes large reserves of safety especially in anchoring gear. The general thought is that it is safe to re-galvanise once, but replacement is probably sensible as you get to larger boats.

When you finally get around to building your custom 65 footer you can move the chain storage much further back by installing a large locker for fenders etc in the bow, followed by the chain storage. As an alternative it is possible to move the chain all the way back to the mast, if you prefer, or even back to the mast and under the waterline (the 66 yacht with the complicated electrics that I posted a photo of had this system). All these options do have some compromises, but the nice thing is you get to pick which compromises you would prefer.
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-09-2014, 02:09   #13
Moderator Emeritus
 
nigel1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Manchester, UK
Boat: Beneteau 473
Posts: 5,497
Re: Getting Chain Out of the Bow

At the end of the day, it is all about how much money you want to throw at the problem.

Couple of years ago, I installed davits and solar panels at the transom, then decided to add more chain forward to get the bow back down.
I now have 120 meters of 10mm G40 chain, and yes, the boat will invariably ship green water going up hill in anything more than a force 6.

But, like you, I have anchored out in deepish water, with a big tidal range, and in 40 to 50 kts of wind, and have been very glad for that extra chain. If it had been half chain and half nylon, I would never have been able to grab any sleep.

As others have suggested, going with G70 and dropping down a size is the easiest, and probably the cheapest solution.

Me, I'll stick to getting wet and save the cash for new sails
__________________
Nigel
Beneteau 473
Manchester, UK
nigel1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 14-09-2014, 02:28   #14
Moderator
 
carstenb's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2012
Location: At sea in the pacific - 5 years full time blue water cruising
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 5,547
Images: 1
Re: Getting Chain Out of the Bow

Dockhead,

Nigel has a good point and you should consider leaving this problem alone until you have solved your dinghy issues. If you get rid of your divats and move the dinghy onto your back deck, you'll be moving the entire weight of the dinghy (and when there are no divats, the weight of the divats), closer to the center of the boat.

This will in turn, give you less of a see-saw effect in heavy sea, albeit your bows will drop a bit.

Were it me, i would solve my dinghy issue, see how the boat handles when that weight is moved and then proceed to solve the bow weight issue
__________________
I must go down to the seas again, to the lonely sea and the sky,
And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by

www.svcapri.com
carstenb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-09-2014, 03:49   #15
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 30,799
Re: Getting Chain Out of the Bow

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky View Post
Will Your windlass accept different gypsy?
Changing to G70 will give You almost 100 kg gain and it is a lot, but replacing the windlass seems to be an excessive payment for me...

One thing is quite sure for me - the chain in the bilge will remain a ballast forever.
Can't imagine taking up 165 kg of steel from bilge to the bow in emergency...
With G70 You will have 235 kg of chain on the bow, with 50 m. of the G40 it will be 165 kg - difference of 70 kg.
I would prefer to have 70 kg more on the bow, than have 165 kg of crucial safety equipement stored in the bilge, with no easy way to get it up and deploy.
And think about all damage it can do to the interior of the boat if You ever really need to get it up in really bad weather...

Cheers,

Tomasz
I can change the gypsy out on my windlass -- it's a Lewmar Ocean and all kinds of different gypsies are available.

But I'm a bit skeptical about the G70 chain -- can't regalvanize it; it doesn't have as much spare material for when it wears. It means you have to replace it much more often, I guess. Is it more brittle? Its not being so heavy is a minus when you want as much catenary as you can get.


OTOH, I can well imagine that the spare chain stored in the bilge would simply never get used. I would get used to the rope rode and forget about it.

Decisions, decision. Hmmmm.
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
For Sale: SS bow sprit pushpit w/built in chain roler $150 STXCUTTER Classifieds Archive 3 07-04-2013 18:35
Bow and Stern or Two Bow Anchors? illiniphoenix Anchoring & Mooring 25 22-08-2012 11:35
Getting Chain into the Bilge JonathanSail Anchoring & Mooring 32 15-01-2012 17:22
Bow Roller with No Way to Capture Chain - How to Fix ? Scare_Rab Anchoring & Mooring 7 17-09-2010 16:08
Does Chain Stopper Wear / Damage Chain ? nitpik Anchoring & Mooring 29 25-02-2010 12:51

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 16:26.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.