Dragging my Rocna - Is my technique at fault?

[noelex 77]

As many others have indicated, the fault is likely to be putting force on an unset anchor with too little scope. This will drag the anchor backwards resulting in a build up of substrate on the anchor, hindering its ability to dig in even when a suitable scope is achieved.

After dropping the anchor, aim to initially apply a gentle force only on the chain, enough to lay the chain straight, but not enough to move the anchor. The force is best not increased until the full desired scope is reached. At this stage gradually increasing the force will give the anchor the best chance to set properly. In soft substrates a pause before applying the force is helpful, although this is generally not needed. The exception to the above is if contemplating a very long scope where the chain friction can absorb much of the setting force so applying the setting force at a more moderate scope can be better.

While the above explanation is the most likely possibility, dragging in only 15 knots is rare so it worth considering if there is any possibility the chain to anchor attachment is jamming in an unfair position.

Even a simple shackle can sometimes be a size and shape that can jam or bind on the anchor shank in an unsuitable position. This can give the anchor very poor and erratic performance. It can be tested on dry land by pulling the chain from various angles to see if the shackle can be jammed on the fluke. If you have a swivel or anchor straighting device this test is especially important, as the extra components increase the possibilities of jamming occurring.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Night_Sailor

My rule of thumb is is your boat is 38', you want the next higher size anchor in kg. So a 45kg.

Rocna doesn't have a 45kg anchor - the next size up to the OP's is 33kg, and 40kg after that. The 25kg anchor is perfectly suited to his boat, and certainly to the weather conditions described.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Thinking about it, being a twin engine powerboat, I probably have an easier time than most sailors would with controlling boat speed while dropping the anchor. So rather than using the clutch (which wouldn't feed fast when I get to the rope portion of my rode), it's easier to just control boat speed to match how fast the windlass can spew out chain. The rode is always slack from when I start dropping until I snub it to take the load off the windlass before applying tension. As far as tension goes, I always use the boat to bring up tension gently, rather than letting it come on hard. Only once there's some tension on the rode will I just leave the engines in reverse for a power set.

For me, the windlass clutch is rarely adjusted, but is almost always kept set such that it'll slip before the windlass motor stalls to avoid hurting anything when pulling the anchor into the roller or if I pull on it a bit while putting on a snubber to break the anchor out of the bottom (no chain stopper in my setup).

I know I’m not changing your mind but no, that is not what the clutch was designed for. And no, you can not control speed moving aft to be the same as speed with which chain is paid out. Also, when the wind is up you can not control load during chain stretching out over the seabed, then coming taut. All that is the job of the windlass.

Rope part? You mean the rope part can not pull the clutch? I’m assuming you have a vertical windlass?

[robertmfranklin]

Just great hearing other's experiences and advice. Anchoring it the most important thing we do, especially if adverse to marina life and ambivalent about moorings.

My experience is this.

I have used a 25 lb CQR on my P36 (1972) for 40 years, but my cruising has been local So. New England and admittedly rather timid. Summer season only.

I am dismayed to see so often the recent affection for newly designed anchors, specifically Mantus and Rochna, as if they are complete solutions to the vagaries of anchoring techniques, so it was refreshing to read someone who has had some very understandable problems.

Although I admit to anchoring a lot less frequently than many of the dedicated cruisers on the Forum, I have anchored enough to have some confidence in the now disparaged CQR. Recently I purchased a 35 lb CQR thinking that what has worked successfully for me for a long long time (I moved my 25 lb from my Pearson 30 in the early '70s to my newish P36 in 1980 when I purchased the new boat. The incentive was saving money and my argument against it being a false economy is that it has served me well and been easy to set and retrieve.

I have considered a windlass, but I have rejected that for many reasons, most of which I am sure anyone on this forum can guess.

I twice have brought my 35 lb CQR aboard the boat only to realize I am too small and too weak to handle it. 35 lbs is a lot of weight to pull. It now sits in storage for the next young man or woman to take over from me, sooner I guess than I would like.

Setting the anchor is critical and I think I know how to do so effectively. However, I did drag once. Anchored inside of Long Point Provincetown, the sand is beautiful, like sugar, due to the millenea of sand being washed around the tip of Cape Cod.

The CQR did exactly what is was suppose to do. It plowed through the sand as the boat pulled and eased in a strong wind. Finally it reached the cliff where the shallow area changes from 20 feet to 80 feet in a short distance and I was off toward the breakwater with the anchor hanging 60 feet below the bow.

The failure of the CQR was my fault, not the anchor's problem. It was not the proper anchor for soft deep sand.

Would the Rochna or Mantus have fared any better?

I re-anchored successfully using my 25 lb Danforth, which I should have pulled out of the seat locker to begin with, but it seemed like too much trouble at the time.

Luckily someone gave me an air horn and I heard it. Otherwise I might have fetched up on the breakwater and ended my sailing there.

I am going to stick with my CQR, leave the 35 lb stored ashore and be more proactive about pulling out the Danforth when conditions indicate that to be the better choice. I prefer the CQR only because it handles on my bow roller and maybe the appearance is more pleasing. A bad criteria, I know, but if I am more mindful when anchoring I should be OK.


So what is the point?

I think the 25 lb CQR is fine.

Flood me with criticism.

[TPG]

I have a Hunter 380 with a ROCNA 20 (44lb) at the end of 100' of 5/16" chain + 100' of rode. Never have issue with dragging in FL under all types of circumstances; I don't see anything wrong with having a heavier anchor or your technique. Could just be circumstance.

[sv_pelagia]

Originally Posted by robertmfranklin

Flood me with criticism.

GUARANTEED if one posts question or answer about anchors or anchoring here on CF!

[Sofa King Fishy]

More scope- I’ve got the same anchor on my C42- 23000 displacement. Mantus swivel, 3/8 chain- 200’, and I’m in soft mud all day in the Chessie. 7 to one, or even 10 to 1 if weather pipes up.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by robertmfranklin

Just great hearing other's experiences and advice. Anchoring it the most important thing we do, especially if adverse to marina life and ambivalent about moorings.



My experience is this.



I have used a 25 lb CQR on my P36 (1972) for 40 years, but my cruising has been local So. New England and admittedly rather timid. Summer season only.



I am dismayed to see so often the recent affection for newly designed anchors, specifically Mantus and Rochna, as if they are complete solutions to the vagaries of anchoring techniques, so it was refreshing to read someone who has had some very understandable problems.



Although I admit to anchoring a lot less frequently than many of the dedicated cruisers on the Forum, I have anchored enough to have some confidence in the now disparaged CQR. Recently I purchased a 35 lb CQR thinking that what has worked successfully for me for a long long time (I moved my 25 lb from my Pearson 30 in the early '70s to my newish P36 in 1980 when I purchased the new boat. The incentive was saving money and my argument against it being a false economy is that it has served me well and been easy to set and retrieve.



I have considered a windlass, but I have rejected that for many reasons, most of which I am sure anyone on this forum can guess.



I twice have brought my 35 lb CQR aboard the boat only to realize I am too small and too weak to handle it. 35 lbs is a lot of weight to pull. It now sits in storage for the next young man or woman to take over from me, sooner I guess than I would like.



Setting the anchor is critical and I think I know how to do so effectively. However, I did drag once. Anchored inside of Long Point Provincetown, the sand is beautiful, like sugar, due to the millenea of sand being washed around the tip of Cape Cod.



The CQR did exactly what is was suppose to do. It plowed through the sand as the boat pulled and eased in a strong wind. Finally it reached the cliff where the shallow area changes from 20 feet to 80 feet in a short distance and I was off toward the breakwater with the anchor hanging 60 feet below the bow.



The failure of the CQR was my fault, not the anchor's problem. It was not the proper anchor for soft deep sand.



Would the Rochna or Mantus have fared any better?



I re-anchored successfully using my 25 lb Danforth, which I should have pulled out of the seat locker to begin with, but it seemed like too much trouble at the time.



Luckily someone gave me an air horn and I heard it. Otherwise I might have fetched up on the breakwater and ended my sailing there.



I am going to stick with my CQR, leave the 35 lb stored ashore and be more proactive about pulling out the Danforth when conditions indicate that to be the better choice. I prefer the CQR only because it handles on my bow roller and maybe the appearance is more pleasing. A bad criteria, I know, but if I am more mindful when anchoring I should be OK.





So what is the point?



I think the 25 lb CQR is fine.



Flood me with criticism.

No criticism. CQR is not useless. Probably decent a lot of the time. And a Mantus would have held much better in the situation you describe. every time.

Especially since you are limited to 25 lbs I can’t see why you don’t spend a few 100 dollars on a new gen anchor. It’s been well established they are better than CQR on average

[roscheetham]

I have a Rocna on my 44’ cat. We could not size up because there is no room for the bigger roller bar due to the bow sprit so it’s sized for the boat. We don’t drag and have sailed all around the world. The one time I could not set it was because it had landed on a plastic bag - which came up with the anchor when we retrieved it to re-set it. That said I cannot set it properly without at least 4:1 scope out (depth of water plus freeboard) or at least 45’ of chain, whichever is more. In really tight situations , and shallow calm water, I let that chain out, set the anchor, then bring some chain in and then add the bridle. Be patient in mud, as other respondents have said, the anchor has to sink in and going back too fast or with too little scope will not allow it to do that. We have also sat out a hurricane on that anchor with 300’ of chain down in about 15’ of water and did not drag.

[CaptJPMcGuire]

I did not read the whole thread--but I downsized from 42' GrandBanks boat to a 24' boat.
I have successfully anchored the big boat (and others -thousands of times)
I can't anchor this little boat worth a damn--FX 12 Fortress Dragged, 15# Bruce dragged, Just bought a 15# Delta--we shall see. 15 'of 3/8 HT Chain --lots of 1/2" rope. Maybe I forgot the renaming incantations as I changed name from "Reel Trouble" to "Lady Grady "---Let me try that before I try more anchoring techniques.
Umm -Someone here a month ago, was not superstitious and not going to do any sill Neptune and Poseidon or God stuff in re-naming their boat. I wonder how that worked out????

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I know I’m not changing your mind but no, that is not what the clutch was designed for. And no, you can not control speed moving aft to be the same as speed with which chain is paid out. Also, when the wind is up you can not control load during chain stretching out over the seabed, then coming taut. All that is the job of the windlass.

Rope part? You mean the rope part can not pull the clutch? I’m assuming you have a vertical windlass?

Mine is horizontal, but once you get enough rope out that there's not much chain weight pulling on it anymore, you'd need to put tension on it with the boat to get it to pay out at any decent rate. The rope just isn't heavy enough to pay out nicely like chain does when dropping with the clutch while slowly moving backwards. It's much more consistent to let the windlass just pull it out of the locker and dump it over the roller as the boat moves backwards. And being that I'm on the bow watching, if I see that it's not paying out nicely enough and is starting to pile up in the water a bit (boat too slow for windlass deployment speed) I just pause the windlass for a moment.

In heavy wind I'd likely have to drop with the clutch as boat control would be more limited (and the clutch handle is stored right next to the remote for that reason). But it's rare that I'm setting the anchor in more than 15 - 20 kts (at which point the boat blows downwind at a speed that matches the windlass deployment fairly well). If it's going to be windier than that, I'm typically anchored before the wind picks up.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by robertmfranklin

The CQR did exactly what is was suppose to do. It plowed through the sand as the boat pulled and eased in a strong wind. Finally it reached the cliff where the shallow area changes from 20 feet to 80 feet in a short distance and I was off toward the breakwater with the anchor hanging 60 feet below the bow.

60' of rode in 20' of water (3:1) is going to test any anchor, particularly in a strong breeze.

The failure of the CQR was my fault, not the anchor's problem.

We can absolutely agree on this

Would the Rochna or Mantus have fared any better?

Perhaps! Assuming a suitable scope. Just theorizing, but a scoop anchor should handle sand better as it will keeping grabbing a bigger "handful" of sand until it is wedged firmly; a plow is wont to plow a furrow - twas what it was designed for.

[robertmfranklin]

I know there have been extensive discussions in the past about bridles. Would someone please give a refresher course.

I've always used a short length of chain, maybe 20 feet, but because I recognize my 25 lb CQR as a little light, I am intending to add 30 feet more of 3/8 chain. For any anchoring situation, I will still have rope from the cleat and over the roller.

[flightlead404]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

A
While the above explanation is the most likely possibility, dragging in only 15 knots is rare so it worth considering if there is any possibility the chain to anchor attachment is jamming in an unfair position.

Even a simple shackle can sometimes be a size and shape that can jam or bind on the anchor shank in an unsuitable position. This can give the anchor very poor and erratic performance. It can be tested on dry land by pulling the chain from various angles to see if the shackle can be jammed on the fluke. If you have a swivel or anchor straighting device this test is especially important, as the extra components increase the possibilities of jamming occurring.

This is something I had not considered. I have two back to back 3/8" Crosby 209A shackles, they are bow-to-bow with the pin through the end link of the chain and the anchor respectively. This is because the shackle bow is slightly too large to go through the chain link (could not get an oversize end link).

I might check out this hypothesis if I continue to have troubles after adjusting my technique.

[flightlead404]

Originally Posted by Sailing Ohm

Likely technique is missing something, I see no mention of you using a snubber/bridle to absorb the shock loads due....

I do use one, yes. I have 25' of 1/2" dock line. It has an eye at one end that I attach to the anchoring cleat with a larks foot through the eye of the cleat. At the other end is a Suncor "slot style" anchor hook/grabber attached with an anchor hitch.

Before all the full scope is out I'll run the hook through the bow roller attach it to the chain and continue paying the chain out, when the bridle is fully out I'll let out another 5-8' of chain, then take a bight of the loose chain and loop it around the anchoring cleat for insurance purposes.