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Old 03-07-2010, 09:20   #46
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Since it was very calm with nothing in the forecast I finally gave in. Next day met a couple of friends at the local dock that had been anchored there for a while who confirmed everyone had the same problem, no matter what kind of anchor. Apparently there is really, really deep, soft, silty mud with no hard bottom so as deep as your anchor can go you will still be in fairly soft goo.
It would be interesting to try letting the anchor set itself over time, a few hours. All anchors obtain higher quality sets over a period after initial setting, as the tugging on the rode works them deeper. In the bottom you describe this improvement would be most pronounced. Reversing at full power doesn't allow for this process although obviously is still a good idea in order to ascertain the nature of the anchor set in the first place.
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Old 03-07-2010, 12:37   #47
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Yes, it is one size larger - we chose that specifically.

3 years without incident in all types of bottoms and all types of weather from Massachusetts to Florida, through the Bahamas and the entire Caribbean to Grenada. I have used Delta, CQR and Bruce extensively in the past and had them drag in much calmer conditions and much better bottoms.

But you weren't trying to start an anchor war, where you?

Mark
Well actually, no I wasn't although I can see why you thought I may have been. It was my own sleepness I was lamenting. I have just purchased a 25kg Roca as a secondary anchor for a yacht that is 50% complete. This has been a very informative thread and from it I conclude that a well set, well sized Rocna with adequate scope is still the anchor to buy. I just have to know what sort of bottom I am asking the anchor to hold on. Overall I have seen nothing here to deter me from purchasing the 33kg Rocna as my main anchor when the boat is finished. I am also glad that there are now other brands of modern anchor that also perform well and give their owners a good night's sleep. At least we won't be dragging down on each other.

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Old 03-07-2010, 15:00   #48
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I have to agree with what Greg has just said. We've primarily used our CQR and now the rocna and, as we've reported elsewhere, there's no competition.

Sure, the rocna gave us some interesting moments the other day in some peculiar and difficult circumstances. Sure, teh CQR sat through 14 solid days at 30kts plus in deep mud in northern Spain 4 years ago. But time after time we have found the rocna much easier to set and rely on.

BTW - we set the alarm at where we are after we've set the anchor and the chain has 'relaxed' to the conditions. We usually use a 0.02nM alarm (about 37m) which in most conditions allows a bit of movement but will wake us for a 180 swing (eg on the tide). This means that if there is major change we have a look around but otherwise sleep well. Unless there's a hoolie which is another matter.

A previous poster talked about staying alert/aware even when asleep. That's really right. The halyard on our mizzen is invaluable as it responds both to a windshift and a swing to a different wind angle. I can be deeply asleep and that will wake me quicker than the alarm.
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Old 03-07-2010, 15:44   #49
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I don't think the spear tip on the Manson makes much of a difference. The Rocna was buried deeply in the weeds, given how much weed came up with it. I just think there wasn't any substrate of significance underneath it.

Is the hoop larger on the Manson? They look about the same to me. (pic from Sailfasttri) I suspect any difference wouldn't be significant in practice.



Absolutely I will. I await the grant money for the study...

Mark
I suspect you are right on both counts, but you don't need to wait for grant money to find out. All you have to do is buy me one of both and I will take care of the rest.

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Old 03-07-2010, 17:04   #50
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Originally Posted by craigsmith View Post
It would be interesting to try letting the anchor set itself over time, a few hours. All anchors obtain higher quality sets over a period after initial setting, as the tugging on the rode works them deeper. In the bottom you describe this improvement would be most pronounced. Reversing at full power doesn't allow for this process although obviously is still a good idea in order to ascertain the nature of the anchor set in the first place.
Well I was hoping that it might work that way and apparently it did as I stayed in the same spot for a couple of months, through a couple of strong blows and wind shifts around the compass and did not end up on the beach.

However, when I get ready to head off into the wild blue yonder think I will upgrade to at least 25 Kgs.
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Old 03-07-2010, 17:46   #51
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A previous poster talked about staying alert/aware even when asleep. That's really right. The halyard on our mizzen is invaluable as it responds both to a wind shift and a swing to a different wind angle. I can be deeply asleep and that will wake me quicker than the alarm.
That is something (maybe another thread - how to word it?) that experience on the water can teach many. I guess some just "never learn" and to some "it just comes naturally" but I think it is part of "knowing your boat" and being aware of your (ever changing) surroundings.

I am not saying an anchor alarm is not a good thing to have.

I have two "dragged my Rocna" examples.

1. Near Anclote Island inside Three Rooker Bar (not the same shape now as on the chart) where as it turned out the spot we were in is soft mud. 5 ft of water after a short day after a late start and arriving in squally weather. Backed hard for "good set" and then did two jerks. Perfect. Wind changed 45 deg and went from 15 to 25 during dinner. Slow drag - Dang! Moved a couple hundred yards to sand/shell for the night. We were awake for this.

2. Dry Tortugas 4-14-10 wind had been in the 20s since leaving Key West two days before. We tried one spot close up to bush key and that was apparently soft mud too and we could not get a good set. Moved South into a spot between two other boats - close for me (and I guess them) but that is all there was left. 6 ft of water 40ft of chain, 20ft rope rode, 15 ft of bridle. Wind that evening 23-26 knots. Anchor alarm set for 50ft. I woke up during the night with the feeling that the boat was moving as if the waves (1-1.5ft wind chop) were coming from off the Port bow a little. I laid there for a minute or so and all returned to "as it should be" with the sounds and feel "normal". I went back to sleep. In the AM I noted on the plotter that we had moved 40ft during the night. I don't know if we drug or it popped out and reset. Popped out maybe because of my waking and resultant observation during the night? A Rocna - no way man - that is why I bought one man!!

The next day (horse and barn door thing) I put out a large Danforth as a second. The Rocna did not move a bit for two more nights. The winds, however diminished over those two days.

We were told by another person in the anchorage that the fort ranger said they recorded 43 knots sustained for 45 minutes during the night of the 14th.

Whew!!!! as 50 or 60 yards down wind are a series of old, ugly, rusty. steel pilings. Close enough that if I had been drifting I would not have made it to the cockpit before impact once my tired, awakened mind/body had reacted.

Whew!!!!!!! Drunks and fools.

That mono in the third pic was not there on the 14th.

edit - oh yea - Rocna 15
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Old 03-07-2010, 18:54   #52
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Unless there's a hoolie which is another matter.
Googling hoolie gets me either an Irish party or a Cleveland gang.

I'm going to need a translation to 'merican here...

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Old 04-07-2010, 00:40   #53
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Googling hoolie gets me either an Irish party or a Cleveland gang.

I'm going to need a translation to 'merican here...

Mark
More common spelling is hooley - refers to stormy wind conditions. "it's blowing a hooley out there" not only reports on the weather conditions but also that not pleasant.

Origins are unclear
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Old 04-07-2010, 01:48   #54
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There's no magic bullet where ground tackle is concerned. I'm convinced by my experience with Spade that the new anchors are a great leap forward. But any anchor can drag, and will drag, and all sailors will still spend sleepless nights at anchor from time to time.
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Old 07-07-2010, 19:38   #55
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Indeed, I agree Dockhead.... However, I truly do have a love affair with my 25k Rocna... We have had Bruces and Deltas, actually I traded my Delta and some cash for the 25k Rocna. Four out of the last six weekends we have been rolled over by squalls, winds from 40kts to 55kts and never budged. Now this is where I get some grief from you guys, generally we anchor in 9-12 feet of murky warter and as a standing rule i use 90-100 feet of chain anytime we set the hook, period. We have never ever dragged - we normally hit the horn and guide the rest to new spots sipping hot coffee. ((knocking on wood)). On the 4th we were rafted up with three other boats and we watched a very nasty storm rolling at us. We all separated and dropped the Roc in 11ft with my 90 feet of chain as the wind blew 42kts the wife baked biscuits for dessert once we all re-rafted for dinner. We LOVE our Rocna!!!!
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Old 08-07-2010, 03:21   #56
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Dragged Our Rocna Today

Dragged Our Rocna Today !!

What's new from an anchor copied from medium weight German anchor - every anchor will disengage if the conditions are right.
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Old 08-07-2010, 05:22   #57
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I ve been in the Med for about 4 years now and LOVE the Manson Supreme, I also have a big Spade, a Xyz and a Grapple 4 pointed fisherman anchor- the Manson Supreme is by far the best- the XYZ the worst out of the 4
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Old 14-07-2010, 12:01   #58
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Our 25 Kg Rocna has been great from Maine to the Bahamas. Still, I sleep with an ear for the wind in the rigging, and a handheld compass next to my bunk. If the wind picks up or the wave action changes, and especially if the boat's heading changes, it's time to poke my head up through the fore hatch and take a look.
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Old 14-07-2010, 12:14   #59
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Just got our Rocna 40!

We just got our new Rocna the other day and now have it nicely installed on the bow roller. We haven't used it yet, but we're glad we have it.

Last weekend (4th of July weekend) we dragged anchor in the middle of the night. We were anchored just off of Santa Rosa Island (near Big Sabine/Pensacola Beach area) when the wind picked up and the waves became huge. We were using our Danforth and about 100 ft. of 3/8 BBB chain in about 8 ft depth. I woke up and realized we were slowly moving parallel to the shore (wind was coming from the East). We pulled anchor and made it to Little Sabine Bay, where we wanted to anchor the next day anyway. We anchored there for a couple of days, but it's so protected that there was no problem with anchor dragging.

Anyway, after we got back to our marina, we put in the order for the Rocna 40 and as luck would have it, it arrived a few days later. That sucker is huge and heavy. I'm thinking we won't drag again any time soon, but I still always set the depth alarms for maximum and minimum within 2 ft. of our anchoring depth. It's the depth alarm that woke me up and let me know to check if we were dragging.

We'll report back after we've used the new anchor a couple of times.
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Old 19-07-2010, 20:24   #60
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I don't think the spear tip on the Manson makes much of a difference. The Rocna was buried deeply in the weeds, given how much weed came up with it. I just think there wasn't any substrate of significance underneath it.

Is the hoop larger on the Manson? They look about the same to me. (pic from Sailfasttri) I suspect any difference wouldn't be significant in practice.



Absolutely I will. I await the grant money for the study...

Mark
Manson is very significantly sharper. I suspect the Manson can penetrate more easily than the Rocna in a hard-packed bottom or grass/weed.

The hoop in a Manson is slightly higher than the Rocna hoop, for equal weight. This is probably because the Manson shank is also higher (to accommodate that marketing slot people should never use) and the hoop needs to be higher to keep it from resting upside-down along the top of the shank. IMHO, that extra piece above the slot adds shank strength, as the Manson shank without the extra piece is about the same height as the Rocna. (I wrote this just to bother Craig Smith ).

In my experience the Manson hoop brings up just as much junk from the bottom as the Rocna hoop. Maybe more -- No difference there.

The image below is a 35 lb. Manson and 20kg (44 lb) Rocna. Due to the higher shank and hoop the 45lb Manson interfered with my bow sprit, but I was able to carry a 44lb Rocna and have it still fit on the bow with about the same fit as the Manson 35. These two anchors are roughly the same height at the top of hoop and top of shank, even though the Rocna is 9 pounds heavier and has more blade area.

I think they're about equal in overall performance for equal weight anchor, so I went for the biggest one I could fit - Rocna. The published tests also showed Rocna to perform a little bit better, in maximum holding power, although I do think Manson has the edge (literally) in initial penetration. I already owned the 35 Manson before this boat, so it is now my stowed spare and the Rocna is primary. There's no such thing as too much anchor when a squall is approaching the anchorage. (We also carry a Fortress for a secondary/kedge.)

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