Does the bow or the pin go in the anchor?

[thinwater]

And not just your opinion. Why? And if you believe it is the bow, why these guys are wrong. I think they are smart guys and probably know more about shackles and anchors than we do.



I'm fully serious.

[tkeithlu]

Somebody would put a non-threaded shackle pin held only by a cotter key on an anchor? I didn't even know they made shackles that dangerous.

OK, The axle (pin) goes in the round hole. The chain slides around the round shackle. But, guess how much fun you're going to have getting the knob end of a shackle through a link in the chain?

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by tkeithlu

Somebody would put a non-threaded shackle pin held only by a cotter key on an anchor? I didn't even know they made shackles that dangerous.

OK, The axle (pin) goes in the round hole. The chain slides around the round shackle. But, guess how much fun you're going to have getting the knob end of a shackle through a link in the chain?

That is a good point. That is probably the common reason.

Folks using higher grade chain have long used two shackles, because the shackle pin that fits in the chain won't span the anchor shank. We used load-rated shackles in the chain and larger normal shackles on the anchor. But if side loading is a concern, they can both be load rated.

[skipmac]

Just curious, who are "these guys" you refer to in your first post?


I have always put the pin through the chain for two reasons.


1. The hole in the anchor is always larger than the ID of the chain link so you can use a larger shackle.


2. Side loading. With the loop in the anchor side loading is minimized. What introduce more side loading than necessary, regardless of rating?

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by thinwater

And not just your opinion. Why? And if you believe it is the bow, why these guys are wrong. I think they are smart guys and probably know more about shackles and anchors than we do.



I'm fully serious.

Hmm... the anchor shown does not have a bow shackle. I would still be fitting a bow shackle between the chain and the anchor shackle with the pin of the bow shackle going though the chain link.

[charliehows]

not sure what you are asking; but seeing as you requested experience before opinion; one of the first things i had to do when i took possession of my most recent boat was replace the shackle holding the anchor to the chain; it's a big anchor with a big, built on shackle head.

there is no way to connect this to a 10mm chain other than to use a shackle of at least 10mm pin size which will not connect to the chain other than by inserting the pin through the chain link. From experience, it was the shackle pin which had worn down to about half its original diameter. 10 years later i have not had to replace any parts on this area of the anchor. shackles are not expensive, if in doubt swap it out.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Just curious, who are "these guys" you refer to in your first post?


I have always put the pin through the chain for two reasons.

1. The hole in the anchor is always larger than the ID of the chain link so you can use a larger shackle.

2. Side loading. With the loop in the anchor side loading is minimized. What introduce more side loading than necessary, regardless of rating?

The guys who build anchors heavier than your boat. See the images.


1. True.
2. Is the side loading worse than the mis-loading that occurs when the shackle get wrapped behind the shank or an ear gets stuck in the slot, twisting the shackle?


Your point about side loading is obvious, and that means the anchor manufacturers above knew about it. Additionally, no shackle manufacture ever suggests putting the chain on the pin. Ever. And they know about the pin size problem. Lifting sling commonly has an over-sized link. But this is off the point.



So while your point is the most obvious, I'm not sure it is valid. I'm also not sure it is not, and I have followed your practice for many years. I'm wondering if it was wrong. I've interviewed anchor manufactures and gotten mixed answers. Not all anchors have slots. You will see a variety of use illustrations.



A complicating factor is that if the anchors has a slot, the shackle is going to move around no matter what you do.

[thinwater]

Perhaps I must word the question differently:

Why didn't Bruce or Danforth put a slot in these large anchors? In fact, you will never find a slot in a ship anchor (look around--I could be wrong). I can think of several reasons, but I can't substantiate them so I won't list them.


---
A few examples:


Fortress. Has a slot, but in their illustrations they are about 50/50 pin-bow. I asked them and they had no opinion. The Guardian does not have a slot.


Spade. Alain's book has a chapter on anchor attachments, and in EVERY illustration the pin is in the anchor. In fact, Alain used a toggle on his personal boat. But the anchor does have a slot.



CQR. No slot.


Rocna. Peter's site shows both ways.

[StuM]

The first image is a "chain (D) shackle", not an anchor (bow) shackle". It should be mated with a bow shackle with the pin through the chain.


From a Practical Sailor test a few years ago:



Perhaps the best example of why you don’t want the shackle pin going through a slotted anchor is illustrated in our first anchor shackle report, “Anchor Shackles: The $15 Insurance Policy” (PS August 2015 online). All of the shackle failures in that test occurred as loads concentrated at the pin threads as the shackle was “pried” open. By inserting the bow into the slot, you give the link more freedom of movement and greatly reduce the chance of failure if the anchor does not rotate to face the load in a wind shift.

For "slotless" anchors, two shackles should be used: a D on the anchor and a bow between the D and the chain, again with the pin through the chain.

[Dennis.G]

I am thinking that if you can fit the bow of the shackle through the end chain link you are using too small of a shackle. Usually only the pin can fit through if a strong enough shackle is being used. Or am I wrong?

I use two shackles on my anchors; usually a larger one pinned to the anchor and a smaller (largest that will fit with chain) on the chain end. They connect bow to bow between the two.

Clarification: Never had a "slotted" anchor.

[Cheechako]

Well, it depends on the anchor shape and if it already has a permanent shackle. If the anchor has a sharp edged slot then the pin goes in. If the anchor has a welded shackle or a rounded eye shaped hole then the bow goes in.

I'm with Skipmac on this one, It was usually bow toward the anchor for me as I want to use the biggest shackle I can, and the pin fits through the chain link.

[BigBeakie]

Thinwater,

You could consult your colleague Jonathan Neeves. If anyone has thought this through, it will be him.

I was told by AnchorRight, who refreshingly, do independently certified break testing of their products, that putting the bow in the anchor slot is preferable to mitigate the pin leveraging forces.

They make an exception with their Super SARCA with the long shank slot where they recommend using a larger size stainless shackle with the pin through the slot so it slides more easily under force up and down in the slot of a galvanised Bisalloy SARCA, compared to a gal shackle. Their experience showed a gal shackle in the gal slot could bind on off axis pulls. In that case, 2 shackles are required in order to connect to the chain, with the second one preferably a Crosby G209A. Note there is significant WLL difference between the Crosby G209 vs the G209A, which is significant if hi tensile chain is used.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by thinwater

The guys who build anchors heavier than your boat. See the images.

Well, yes I looked at the images. Couldn't miss them. Maybe they look different on your computer but on mine there's no scale, no reference, nothing to identify them so for all I could tell it was a 2 kg dinghy anchor.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Well, yes I looked at the images. Couldn't miss them. Maybe they look different on your computer but on mine there's no scale, no reference, nothing to identify them so for all I could tell it was a 2 kg dinghy anchor.

Oh.

The Bruce is probably 5-10 tons (container in background) and the US Navy Lightweight is available from 4-6500 KG.

These people know anchors.


---


I'm not sayin' I have an opinion. I see conflicting manufacturer opinions and conflicting information. A lot of good points have been made on this thread. I think it is pretty that obvious either can work. Most of us have done it both ways.

Gotta talk about somethin' on forums.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Oh.


The Bruce is probably 5-10 tons (container in background) and the US Navy Lightweight is available from 4-6500 KG.


These people know anchors.

Interesting - I'm not seeing any images of a Bruce in this thread and the first image I see looks like a garden variety Danforth - maybe large dinghy or trailer boat size???