Do you Like your Rope Rode ?

[Delancey]

I guess another question for those who have mentioned people who have ended up on the beach from parted rope rides, would you care to care to comment on the general competency of said individuals? Are these people you would consider to possess acute situational awareness? Or the type to traipse around willy nilly? Was operator error a factor?

[estarzinger]

^^ some of both . . . some generally competent people have been mislead by their prior good/safe experience with rope in other parts of the world and had serious failures with rope rodes in the pacific. And elsewhere some generally competent people have had their rope rodes cut by things like rust refrigerators siting ton on the bottom of harbors.

But . . . I might also comment that, when investigated . . . quite a number of the rope rode failures are actually due to chafe at the bow (which CAN be prevented with situational awareness), and in fact not on the bottom. The story becomes cut at the bottom later to save the skipper's pride.

I might also comment that there is NO completely risk free solution to anything on a boat. All chain has its own different pitfalls.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Delancey

I know there are many here who might say all chain, end of discussion.

I'm one of them. All chain, end of discussion.

Its vital that people consider other people anchored and put down good amounts off all chain. Anything else is selfish in the extreme in my opinion.

Rope rode drags in wind and floats the boat all over the bay when the wind drops.


Mark

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

I'm one of them. All chain, end of discussion.

Its vital that people consider other people anchored and put down good amounts off all chain. Anything else is selfish in the extreme in my opinion.

Rope rode drags in wind and floats the boat all over the bay when the wind drops.


Mark

You got me there.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Its vital that people consider other people anchored and put down good amounts off all chain.

But Mark,

You can almost always anchor in 10-30ft of water.

Isn't 75's of chain (plus some rope) "a good amount" in 99% of the situations. It is enough to dramatically cut 'sailing'. And the difference in weight in the bow between 75's of chain plus 225' rope and 300' of chain is significant.

And isn't 150' of chain "a good amount" in 99.999% of situations?

The question (as I understand it) is not about 'no chain', but about less than 300' of chain. I suspect you will agree that something less than 300' of chain is 'acceptable' (even if its only 299' ) )

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

^^ some of both . . . some generally competent people have been mislead by their prior good/safe experience with rope in other parts of the world and had serious failures with rope rodes in the pacific. And elsewhere some generally competent people have had their rope rodes cut by things like rust refrigerators siting ton on the bottom of harbors.

But . . . I might also comment that, when investigated . . . quite a number of the rope rode failures are actually due to chafe at the bow (which CAN be prevented with situational awareness), and in fact not on the bottom. The story becomes cut at the bottom later to save the skipper's pride.

I might also comment that there is NO completely risk free solution to anything on a boat. All chain has its own different pitfalls.

I think for the sake of discussion at least, a dyneema rode is an interesting concept.

Slippery stuff, any thoughts on how you would attach a snubber? Maybe a prussic loop? I think you mentioned recently you had a new load cell and were looking for things to test, some knots might have been mentioned....

[estarzinger]

^^ We did a practical sailor article some years ago, on gripper hitches, not on dyneema line, but on a greased stainless stanchion. Based on that I have used the icicle hitch on both my (dyneema) reef lines and drogue rode and it has held. But they are not shock loaded the way an anchor rode is. And our PS testing was a steady load and not shock loading. So some shock loading testing would be useful. Ultimately, the french G class boats have a 'Chinese finger' solution which certainly does hold but would be a bit less convenient. I am pretty sure you could find a secure attachment a solution.

You could also put one of those rubber dock line snubber/shock absorber things on the dyneema line.

And yes, I brought up the polypro and dyneema options primarily to reinforce that there are engineering alternatives and not just 'one right answer'.

[Kenomac]

I was anchored inside Long Beach Harbor off the oil island in what I believed was mud during a 50 knot blow a few years ago using a rope rode to maybe 20 ft of chain on my Hunter 450. The splice was all chewed up when I brought up the anchor, thank goodness the wind only lasted 24 hours. I've always used 100% chain along with a substantial snubber ever since.

Why take any chances? Chain is cheap insurance.... one never really knows for sure what's down on the bottom.

[Vasco]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I was anchored inside Long Beach Harbor off the oil island in what I believed was mud during a 50 knot blow a few years ago using a rope rode to maybe 20 ft of chain on my Hunter 450. The splice was all chewed up when I brought up the anchor, thank goodness the wind only lasted 24 hours. I've always used 100% chain along with a substantial snubber ever since.

Why take any chances? Chain is cheap insurance.... one never really knows for sure what's down on the bottom.

On my CS36M I still use 50 ft of chain and line. The line is spliced to a thimble and then shackled to the chain. After years of use very little wear on the splice.

[boatman61]

I've owned boats from 21ft to 37ft and always go chain only... just got to stow sensibly to get a good balance to the boat... mind if your chain lies low in the bow its easier than one of those silly toy deck lockers on some models...

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Vasco

On my CS36M I still use 50 ft of chain and line. The line is spliced to a thimble and then shackled to the chain. After years of use very little wear on the splice.

You've been lucky. All it takes is that one special time when a sharp rock or hunk of steel is sitting on the bottom to snag the rope.... and your luck runs out and you find yourself on the beach, or worse.

Just for fun and to cool down in the Med. I often snorkel or dive the anchor after setting it. There have been so many times where there was a bing hunk of WW1, WW2 junk, steel cable or sharp rocks... all kinds of stuff just sitting down there waiting to snag an anchor rode within a hundred feet or so.

[Vasco]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

You've been lucky. All it takes is that one special time when a sharp rock or hunk of steel is sitting on the bottom to snag the rope, and your luck runs out.

Just for fun and to cool down in the Med. I often snorkel or dive the anchor after setting it. There have been so many times where there was a bing hunk of WW1, WW2 junk, steel cable or sharp rocks... all kinds of stuff just sitting down there waiting to snag an anchor rode within a hundred feet or so.

I kid that I wont anchor where I haven't been before. Familiarity with the bottom helps. But I have anchored in strange places as in an old disused canal on the Jersey side in NY City and found out later the bottom was fouled with old towing wire rope. If I had been smarter I would have known by all the old tugs tied up there. Or old mooring anchors and chain in Lake Worth and other harbours. Luckily I managed to get out of these jams. Luck also plays a part and vigilance when it starts to honk while at anchor.

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I've owned boats from 21ft to 37ft and always go chain only... just got to stow sensibly to get a good balance to the boat... mind if your chain lies low in the bow its easier than one of those silly toy deck lockers on some models...

Therein lies my quandry, my boat has one of those silly toy deck lockers. We're liveaboard cruisers and have so much crap onboard as it is. Putting the extra weight in the toy locker in the bow will just make things worse. Providing proper storage is doable, but it's a production boat with a glass pan which means it won't be easy.

There's nothing special about the boat and it's already paid for itself with the money we saved by not paying Manhattan rent so I don't mind cutting it up or worry about resale valve, but at the end of the day it's more work plus the expense of windlass and the chain itself and we want to go cruising sooner than later. What else is there? Let's see, replace standing rigging, build a dodger, buy a liferaft, new sails, oh crap forgot about repowering, etc.

I got nothing against all chain, but maybe a right question for me to be asking is what is the minimum amount of chain you can get away with in the Caribbean?

50 feet? 75? 100? I mean do you really trawl 300' of chain along the bottom looking for coral to not get chaffed by, or is most of that length free and clear of the bottom most of the time? At which point what makes all chain so great? Catenary? No, then what? Resisting chafe at the deck? there's ways around that.

[Cheechako]

I think you could get away with 100 ft fine backed up with nylon rode. I'd feel better with 150 ft. Like mentioned above, the bottom is littered with stuff to chafe a rode. 150 ft and a backupnylon should fit in most lockers... In the 80's the Griffiths sailed round the world with 1" Polypropylene rode... floating and non tangling.. but I wouldnt advise it!

[boatman61]

50 metres should be just fine in the Caribs... with about 50ft of rope rode... should allow you plenty of scope in those waters.. as has been said tho'... keep the rope well above the bottom.