Delta vs CQR, sizing, etc.

[craigsmith]

Originally Posted by GMac

Knowing both Craig Rocna, Steve Manson and the evolution of the 2 products, I'm in 2 minds as to what actually happened timeline wise but it's now history as they say and people have to live with it and just move on.

Well let's go over the timeline:

1. Peter develops the Rocna as a personal project in 2000. Slight developments are made over the next few years.
2. Interest from others, together with extensive personal trialling in the real world, forments the idea of commercialization.
3. In 2004 Peter talks to Manson concerning possible licensing of the Rocna design to them. Manson are interested and are shown the anchor, testing, and more sensitive information. Their own ideas at that point extended to copying a slight variation on the German Buegelanker. Manson offer trivial payment for the Rocna which is rejected by Peter.
4. Manson engage in their own testing and examination of the Rocna sometime prior to February 2005.
5. In February 2005, they announce to us they "have developed a new anchor".
6. Later than year, Manson, then producers of a CQR copy, a Bruce copy, a Danforth copy, and a copy of a ship's balanced-fluke type, release the Supreme. This copy is functionally identical to the Rocna and closely copies almost all of its important lines and angles.

I don't personally object to the marketing spin comments, but this issue is one that is not being "spun". I am however interested in presenting the facts, including a detailed examination of the cheapening construction short-cuts and slight design compromises which Manson have made, in the interest of defending the genuine Rocna against such knock-offs.

Originally Posted by Keegan

yes, Chris spun me enough to buy one, but at least I knew I had been spun

Now who's this Chris then? Since we're confusing he's and she's, is Chris for Christine? I wanna meet her!

[GMac]

[quote=Keegan]

Originally Posted by GMac

I'd agree with Keegan and do like his (her???) quote]

He, not she.
Keegan

I'm the only bloke in a house full of females, I've learnt to be careful on how I word things as I do prefer all my body parts to stay attached

[Keegan]

Originally Posted by craigsmith

Now who's this Chris then? Since we're confusing he's and she's, is Chris for Christine? I wanna meet her!

Oops!!! I meant YOU Craig. Not Chris. You are the master Spin Dr. You talked me out of several hundred dollars for that hunk of steel your selling. Oh, thanks, I really like it by the way.

Keegan

[GMac]

Well now... after your post about Craigs 'spin' you now admit he got you, nice.

I told you he was good

[Whimsical]

In 2004 Peter talks to Manson concerning possible licensing of the Rocna design to them. Manson are interested and are shown the anchor, testing, and more sensitive information. Their own ideas at that point extended to copying a slight variation on the German Buegelanker. Manson offer trivial payment for the Rocna which is rejected by Peter.


Later than year, Manson, then producers of a CQR copy, a Bruce copy, a Danforth copy, and a copy of a ship's balanced-fluke type, release the Supreme. This copy is functionally identical to the Rocna and closely copies almost all of its important lines and angles.

Sorry Craig but without an agreement up front it seems to be more than a little dumb to show all the detail to someone who is already producing knockoffs.

Mike

[rleslie]

Rocna Anchors

US distributor of Rocna located in Ft Lauderdale.

Roger

[CSY Man]

US distributor of Rocna located in Ft Lauderdale.

Hmm, that info may not be valid anymore:

I tried to buy a Rocna in Ft. Lauderdale 3 months ago, but was told to contact the Canadian Importer.

[rleslie]

My mistake. I received this from Craig:

Our apologies but Best Marine cannot supply you with a Rocna – they are no longer a reseller. We have repeatedly requested they remove the Rocna advertisement from their website, but to date they have not done so.

You may purchase directly from Suncoast Marine in Vancouver – the freight via ground shipping is not too bad. Alternatively, you may also order via West Marine. WM do not yet have the anchor listed in their catalog, but if you call their sales staff and quote
the appropriate SKU # as below, they can ship you one from their central warehousing.

[nalani]

you guys are great! to your comment Gmac - our moody is very heavy and has a long starting/stoping time. we are learning our response time has to be much faster as the boat keeps going or takes that much longer to respond. with that said - and excuse my ignorance have always been really bad at math - does that mean that she will pull more on the anchor or her heavyness (?) cause the wind/current to push/pull her that much slower and as a result have less pull? also is 1lb per foot really a realistic number. obviously we don't want to have to carry around huge anchors. one of the things we have found is that there is a large variance between sizes - one anchor went from 55lbs to 80lbs and we needed something inbetween.

[craigsmith]

Originally Posted by nalani

you guys are great! to your comment Gmac - our moody is very heavy and has a long starting/stoping time. we are learning our response time has to be much faster as the boat keeps going or takes that much longer to respond. with that said - and excuse my ignorance have always been really bad at math - does that mean that she will pull more on the anchor or her heavyness (?) cause the wind/current to push/pull her that much slower and as a result have less pull?

No, a heavier boat can expect to generate higher shock loads than a light boat (not always, depends on the circumstances, but over time the heavier boat will prove it needs a larger anchor).

Originally Posted by nalani

also is 1lb per foot really a realistic number.

No, it isn't.

[GordMay]

As Craig says, heavier boats require larger anchors.

A heavier object (more massive), such as your Moody, will exhibit more inertia & momentum; but less acceleration, than will a lighter object.

Accordingly:
When you care least (lower wind/wave loads), the heavier boat will exhibit less pull (steady & shock) on the anchor.
When you care the most (higher wind/wave loads), the heavier boat will be slower to accelerate; but once it gets going, it will exert higher (steady & shock) loads.

Your response time shouldn't be affected so much as your anticipation interval.

[nalani]

"No, it isn't."
what a tantalizing response!!!

[craigsmith]

Nalani this is a question which probably gets asked about once a week somewhere on the internet. A brief search would find you more answers than you could shake a stick at.

Any thought given to the question should illustrate that such a simple rule of thumb is clearly inadequate, given the vast variance in boat-types, displacements, and windage profiles for any particular length.

The other variable is clearly: what anchor are you talking about. All anchors are not equal, particularly not as defined by weight.

Rules-of-thumb are for getting chandlery customers out the door quickly with their made-in-China Bruce knock-off.

You will find one properly calculated sizing chart on our website. We use both LOA and displacement to give a reasonable approximation that is quite applicable to most monohulls. Our figures think about 50 knots wind, considerable surge, and only moderate holding. The chart does NOT apply to other anchors.

If you want to size other anchors, or any anchor for a particular wind strength, then you need to set that condition as a constant, work out how much force your boat will generate in said conditions, and find reliable test data for the anchor you (will) have (in an applicable seabed) to base a conclusion on. Here's a hint: don't trust anything the manufacturers tell you on the topic!

(Did that last imply a paradox? )

[nalani]

therein lies the problem - too much information on the internet. my intention has been to try to form an opinion based on the consistency of peoples real life experience/opinion with each type of anchor. as you well know anchors are an investment and i don't particularly want to be in the business of testing them! and yes it did by the way.... at the risk of being blasted by the rest - you are definitely a good salesman....

[Steve Pope]

Gmac what do you trade as and where are you based, I havn't been able to find a spade anywhere in the North, Rocna and supremes yes but no spades