Custom Made Windlass Gypsy?

[CookiesnTequila]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

A couple of thoughts on this. Which may go over like a fart in an elevator.
Have you considered:
- Switching to 8mm G7 chain?
- Switching to a different style & model of windlass. Like a Maxwell vertical for example.
- Getting your back sorted out. Especially as, if it's giving you that much trouble with daily chores, then what's going to happen WHEN an emergency arrises. One which requires at least a mid level amount of core strength to be able to handle.

You last comment is quite stinky I must admit! There are multitudes of people with physical disabilities cruising quite nicely, and quite safely - thanks to the advancements in systems! I do have more than a medium level of capability - for now!, but if I can make it easier: 1) the smallest/weakest person on our boat (my wife) can handle it much easier, and 2) it prolongs the years that I/we can keep sailing, and all of this increases the all round safety margin significantly.

Our boat was designed (as per Catana) for 60 meters of 12mm. We have 80, which is a problem. I am switching to 10mm g7, or maybe Duplex SS. 8mm is not strong enough. We are a 25 tone, 50' Catamaran. I am convinced that 60 meters of 10mm g7coupled to another 60 meters of rode would be a perfect solution.

Switching windlass is a definite possibility that I am looking into. It looks like it could be cheaper than using Duplex SS chain!

[Schooner Chandlery]

We have an all-chain rode as primary (500' 1/2" bbb) and a horizontal Ideal Windlass--one side with the grooved wildcat for the chain, the other with the smooth gypsy for the rope. We have the issue on the secondary rode--it comes up on the rope gypsy and we only keep 12' of chain on it because that's the distance from the bow roller back to the windlass. We hardly ever use the secondary rode and when we do I always wish I had a better system for dealing with chain on that side so we could have more chain on it--dealing meaning other than getting a different gypsy that is really a wildcat with a groove for the rope rode. I use the smooth gypsy for other tasks aboard the boat --like hauling my husband up the mast in bosun's chair so I like it as it except for the issue of the secondary rode only being able to have the scant 12 ft of chain on it.

[Schooner Chandlery]

Originally Posted by CookiesnTequila

You last comment is quite stinky I must admit! There are multitudes of people with physical disabilities cruising quite nicely, and quite safely - thanks to the advancements in systems! I do have more than a medium level of capability - for now!, but if I can make it easier: 1) the smallest/weakest person on our boat (my wife) can handle it much easier, and 2) it prolongs the years that I/we can keep sailing, and all of this increases the all round safety margin significantly.

Our boat was designed (as per Catana) for 60 meters of 12mm. We have 80, which is a problem. I am switching to 10mm g7, or maybe Duplex SS. 8mm is not strong enough. We are a 25 tone, 50' Catamaran. I am convinced that 60 meters of 10mm g7coupled to another 60 meters of rode would be a perfect solution.

Switching windlass is a definite possibility that I am looking into. It looks like it could be cheaper than using Duplex SS chain!

I agree with optimizing things so that a less-strong person can handle them. Many of the suggestions that other people have made are valid and don't require a lot of additional strength, they're just more...complicated to do. If your wife practices the needed techniques she should be able to do them if something happens so you cannot. My husband is stronger than me and I sometimes have problems loosening up the clutch on our windlass (seriously and I thought I was strong! for a woman) but I've got my own bit of wood that I can use to pound/leverage it properly if needed.

Regarding your back--I empathize since I know several people with dire back problems -- no matter what your own problem is, getting as much core strength as possible will help you in the long run. Strong abs can really help keep even arthritis-ridden and injured spines from pain.

Best of luck in getting together a system that works for you, your wife, and your boat,
Brenda

[colemj]

Originally Posted by CookiesnTequila

We are a 25 tone, 50' Catamaran.

That can't be so - not even Lagoon can reach those displacements. Certainly Catana is building them lighter than that?

If you indeed are not 25 ton, I think you could go fine with 8mm G70 - particularly a high quality chain like Maggi.

Mark

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by CookiesnTequila

You last comment is quite stinky I must admit! There are multitudes of people with physical disabilities cruising quite nicely, and quite safely - thanks to the advancements in systems! I do have more than a medium level of capability - for now!, but if I can make it easier: 1) the smallest/weakest person on our boat (my wife) can handle it much easier, and 2) it prolongs the years that I/we can keep sailing, and all of this increases the all round safety margin significantly.

Our boat was designed (as per Catana) for 60 meters of 12mm. We have 80, which is a problem. I am switching to 10mm g7, or maybe Duplex SS. 8mm is not strong enough. We are a 25 tone, 50' Catamaran. I am convinced that 60 meters of 10mm g7coupled to another 60 meters of rode would be a perfect solution.

Switching windlass is a definite possibility that I am looking into. It looks like it could be cheaper than using Duplex SS chain!

I didn't mean to insult with the back comment, but was calling things as I see them. And I stand by said comment, given that I too have a bad back. Several herniated discs thanks.

Due to which, I'm in low gear for now, when it comes to much serious sailing. And I've been around enough sailors with back trouble over the course of several decades, & know that anchor duty is generally a no no.
That's where I was coming from with that comment. Make sense?
Also, in 3 different seperate posts made by you before my comment on backs, you had Heavily emphasized your back condition, ending each comment about it with an exclamation point.

Now you're stating that you have more than average core strength (in so many words). So which is it? Bad back or strong man?
And you're upset at me about the semi-disability which you strongly made out to have (repeatedly) because, why?

If you'll notice, I put what's probably a good bit more than average time & thought into my initial post. In attempts to assist you with your problem (ditto re; this post). Including adding in a safety warning, concerning doing mod's on your chain locker.

Back to the real topic:
I applaud that you're setting things up onboard so that your wife can handle everything onboard too. Would that more guys did so. Especially as it's foolhardy & unseamanlike not to, for a number of reasons.

Regarding chain size & strength, vs. your comments:
If Catana is recommending that you use 1/2" (as you have been), consider this; it has a WLL of 4,500lbs. Where as 8mm G43 chain has a WLL of 3,900lbs.
If those few hundred pounds in strength make a difference, then you likely have bigger problems on your hands. So my suggestion wasn't off the mark, IMO (nor if one does the math).
And I suggested using such chain, additionally because; it's cheaper (than G7), as well as being easier to find than G7. That & it's also easier to find gypsys to fit it.

One question.
I did a quick search on the displacement of Catana 50's, & came up with figures in the 15t range+/- for said vessel, so I'm not sure why you're saying that you're boat's so much heavier?
Might you be kind enough to clarify that please

[CookiesnTequila]

Originally Posted by Schooner Chandlery

I agree with optimizing things so that a less-strong person can handle them. Many of the suggestions that other people have made are valid and don't require a lot of additional
Regarding your back--I empathize since I know several people with dire back problems -- no matter what your own problem is, getting as much core strength as possible will help you in the long run. Strong abs can really help keep even arthritis-ridden and injured spines from pain.

Best of luck in getting together a system that works for you, your wife, and your boat,
Brenda

I completely agree, and thank you.

We are really close. The only issue we have, which is absolutely manageable, is that the chain piles and needs to be knocked down periodically. As long as it's myself or my wife doing it (because we are used to it), it should not be a problem.

I am just a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to safety and eliminating potential problems - which is what I see this to be.

[CookiesnTequila]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

I didn't mean to insult with the back comment, but was calling things as I see them. And I stand by said comment, given that I too have a bad back. Several herniated discs thanks.

Due to which, I'm in low gear for now, when it comes to much serious sailing. And I've been around enough sailors with back trouble over the course of several decades, & know that anchor duty is generally a no no.
That's where I was coming from with that comment. Make sense?
Also, in 3 different seperate posts made by you before my comment on backs, you had Heavily emphasized your back condition, ending each comment about it with an exclamation point.

Now you're stating that you have more than average core strength (in so many words). So which is it? Bad back or strong man?
And you're upset at me about the semi-disability which you strongly made out to have (repeatedly) because, why?

If you'll notice, I put what's probably a good bit more than average time & thought into my initial post. In attempts to assist you with your problem (ditto re; this post). Including adding in a safety warning, concerning doing mod's on your chain locker.

Back to the real topic:
I applaud that you're setting things up onboard so that your wife can handle everything onboard too. Would that more guys did so. Especially as it's foolhardy & unseamanlike not to, for a number of reasons.

Regarding chain size & strength, vs. your comments:
If Catana is recommending that you use 1/2" (as you have been), consider this; it has a WLL of 4,500lbs. Where as 8mm G43 chain has a WLL of 3,900lbs.
If those few hundred pounds in strength make a difference, then you likely have bigger problems on your hands. So my suggestion wasn't off the mark, IMO (nor if one does the math).
And I suggested using such chain, additionally because; it's cheaper (than G7), as well as being easier to find than G7. That & it's also easier to find gypsys to fit it.

One question.
I did a quick search on the displacement of Catana 50's, & came up with figures in the 15t range+/- for said vessel, so I'm not sure why you're saying that you're boat's so much heavier?
Might you be kind enough to clarify that please

No offenses taken - I just disagree. A person can absolutely have quite serious back issues and still maintain very good core strength - in fact every doctor will tell you that the best defense for degenerative back issues is a regular regime of stretching and exercise (to enhance core strength), which I have been doing for 20+ years now. I have had degenerative spinal stenosis caused by arthritis and a sports injury for over 40 years.

I also do not believe it necessary to be physically strong, or even fully mobile to live aboard and cruise extensively. Especially if one is smart enough to choose their vessel wisely, and has the financial wherewithal to equip it with things like properly/over sized electric winches and/or furling gear, windlasses, autopilots etc.

It is correct that Catana claims the weight of a Catana 50 to be 18,300kg "light displacement". We were hauled recently by a 400 ton travel lift with full tanks, dinghy on the davits etc., and the scale fluctuated between 48,000 and 50,000 lbs. (25 tons) which is 22 - 23 metric tones.

I took my requirements off the Rocna sizing charts. For a monohull, I agree that 8mm g7 would suffice, but the Rocna charts recommend their 55kg anchor, which requires 10mm g7, or 12mm g4 chain.

My philosophy when it comes to ground tackle, has always been to go at least one size, up and put out a little extra scope, to get a good night's sleep. In this case, since I have a 42kg Wasi (Rocna/Bugel style) anchor already, I feel pretty confident that the 55kg would be the right anchor for our boat (BTW - I am not replacing our anchor, at least not now, and I don't mean for this to sound like I would choose a Rocna if I was, I just used their tables).

I'm getting different numbers on the Rocna chain page - 12mm G4 shows a WLL of 2120kgf, whereas the 8mm g7 only 1400, which is more than the difference you stated (...1/2" (as you have been), consider this; it has a WLL of 4,500lbs. Where as 8mm G43 chain has a WLL of 3,900lbs.)

So I think/feel 10mm g7 is the right (minimum) choice for our boat.

I would definitely like to hear if you - or anyone - still disagrees! It certainly wouldn't be the first time that I erred too far on the side of safety!!

Thanks all...

[colemj]

Travel lift weight measurements are notoriously inaccurate and imprecise - sometimes by very large amounts.

There is no such thing as a required chain size for an anchor.

When comparing chain, it is best to look at BLL numbers, and not WLL. WLL is gamed differently by different manufacturers and for different chain grades, so will not be meaningful. BLL is what it is - no messing with the numbers there.

Mark

[CookiesnTequila]

Originally Posted by colemj

Travel lift weight measurements are notoriously inaccurate and imprecise - sometimes by very large amounts.

There is no such thing as a required chain size for an anchor.

When comparing chain, it is best to look at BLL numbers, and not WLL. WLL is gamed differently by different manufacturers and for different chain grades, so will not be meaningful. BLL is what it is - no messing with the numbers there.

Mark

Agreed on all counts. I should have said recommended, not required.

But from 18 T empty to 22T full (metric) doesn't seem to far fetched - and I bet manufacturer's weight numbers are about as accurate as the travel lift's are also! Either way, we still fall into Rocna's recommendation for a 55 with 10mm g7 chain.

100 meters of 10mm g70 is a little better than 10% lighter than the 80m of 12mm, so I'm thinking I'll cross my fingers and hope that the combination of 10% less volume and smaller link size will solve the piling problem.

If not, I guess I'll rig a light in the locker and push rod to simplify knocking down the pile when it starts getting too close. Not ideal, but not terrible ether.

[exMaggieDrum]

Originally Posted by CookiesnTequila

With a combination chain/rope windlass, like the Maxwell, the transition from chain to rope is seamless - there is no need to do anything. The rope is spliced to the chain and it simply plays in or out as needed. It worked great for me on a previous, smaller boat.

I do not need to do it all from the cockpit, in fact I never anchor from the cockpit. And we always have to attach and detach the bridal. And, it is always best to have eyes on the bow and windlass when raising or lowering. But in an emergency, I want one person (myself or my wife) to be able to raise the anchor without strenuous acrobatics from the helm while maneuvering the boat if need be, after the bridal is removed.

Sounds like a good approach.

BTW - regarding chain piles, which are an eternal PITA problem, I have seen some people secure something like a traffic cone directly underneath the hawse pipe in the locker so that it won't allow the chain to pyramid (and then fall over and jam). But it does take up a lot of space that you may need for the rode. Pushing it over from the forward locker is a real pain, especially if the berth is really a storage area.

[Schooner Chandlery]

Flaking the chain:

With 500' of 1/2" BBB chain, we know it can pile up. We have a huge chain locker but that pile can go straight up if left to it's own devices. If we have more than 200 ft of chain out (e.g. during out AK trip anchoring in 60' to 100' of water we often had almost all the chain out), our process is to start the engine, then typically my husband goes to the foredeck and I go below to the anchor locker to flake chain. I use a 3 ft stick to back and forth flake it into the locker. When we get to the point that we've got less than 200 ft left to go, I go back up to man the helm while my husband continues bringing in chain.

When we rebuilt the boat, we gave up the opportunity for additional living space by keeping the original forecastle in place--we made sure the forecastle gives easy access to the chain locker which is about 5 feet aft of the stem. The chain drops straight into the locker:



but it can pile up. so I flake side-to-side to achieve a pile that looks like this one below. That's all 500 ft loaded into the locker and it would have ended up to the overhead had I not been flaking it the whole way. You see the tail of the chain goes out forward of the locker. It is spliced onto a 20 ft section of rope that is shackled to an eye bolt on the stem. The rope can be cut if we need to drop the chain and leave ground tackle buoyed off. Important for that rope to be long enough that you don't have to go below deck to cut it.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by CookiesnTequila

No offenses taken - I just disagree. A person can absolutely have quite serious back issues and still maintain very good core strength - in fact every doctor will tell you that the best defense for degenerative back issues is a regular regime of stretching and exercise (to enhance core strength), which I have been doing for 20+ years now. I have had degenerative spinal stenosis caused by arthritis and a sports injury for over 40 years.
There are a variety of Medical fixes available for such spine conditions. Some of which I am actively discussing with another CF member at present. One needn't live with the pain & the physical limitations of such in this day & age.

I also do not believe it necessary to be physically strong, or even fully mobile to live aboard and cruise extensively. Especially if one is smart enough to choose their vessel wisely, and has the financial wherewithal to equip it with things like properly/over sized electric winches and/or furling gear, windlasses, autopilots etc.

My only arguments with the above two paragraphs are well noted, otherwise, I think they're fairly accurate. I mean, Tristan Jones setup & sailed a trimaran for many years, when he was wheel chair bound.

My point is, in your being upset about my comments, you in fact stated, repeatedly & vehemently, that you have significant back issues.
Then when I pointed out your statements to said effect, you very much tried to put me in my place about such.
In addition to countering with the statement that you have above average strength to handle shipboard gear. And, consequently making it sound like your handling anchor duties, & other emergencies was no big deal. Which was in direct contradiction to your other, back related comments.

Or has my ability to read english, suddenly, greatly diminished?

It is correct that Catana claims the weight of a Catana 50 to be 18,300kg "light displacement". We were hauled recently by a 400 ton travel lift with full tanks, dinghy on the davits etc., and the scale fluctuated between 48,000 and 50,000 lbs. (25 tons) which is 22 - 23 metric tones.

In addition to what was just previously posted about the accuracy of Travel Lift weight measurements, there's this.
Most scales (& instruments) are designed to operate with the most accuracy in the middle range of what they can weigh/measure. And your vessel is about 1/20th the capacity of said machine. So, statistically speaking, it's not going to give you the greatest results.
That, & in a Travel Lift, there are so many, relatively high friction components, that they're also going to affect measurements a lot at the low end of it's measuring range. It's not as if they're fitted with zero friction blocks for their wires to pass through (SIC).

It's comparable to trying to accurately weigh something in the 6-7kg range, on a bathroom scale which reads up to 300lbs. Small differences at either extreme end of it's measurement range are going to be fraught with inaccuracies.
Assuming, that is, that it's a scale, & not a digital strain gauge.

With full tanks, & all of your cruising gear onboard, your boat's 4-5t above it's cited empty weight? Or as another way of figuring such:
- Are your transoms would be deeply immersed?
- Is your handling greatly affected?
- Are you having structural issues with your beam to hull connections?

I took my requirements off the Rocna sizing charts. For a monohull, I agree that 8mm g7 would suffice, but the Rocna charts recommend their 55kg anchor, which requires 10mm g7, or 12mm g4 chain.
IMO, 12mm G4 chain, which has a WLL of 9,200lbs (or a breaking strength of 27,600lbs) is more than a bit of overkill for this application. Just my $0.02

Also, you never stated that you were using G4 chain until now, so we didn't have the correct information to work with/base recommendations on (SIC).

My philosophy when it comes to ground tackle, has always been to go at least one size, up and put out a little extra scope, to get a good night's sleep. In this case, since I have a 42kg Wasi (Rocna/Bugel style) anchor already, I feel pretty confident that the 55kg would be the right anchor for our boat (BTW - I am not replacing our anchor, at least not now, and I don't mean for this to sound like I would choose a Rocna if I was, I just used their tables).

I'm getting different numbers on the Rocna chain page - 12mm G4 shows a WLL of 2120kgf, whereas the 8mm g7 only 1400, which is more than the difference you stated (...1/2" (as you have been), consider this; it has a WLL of 4,500lbs. Where as 8mm G43 chain has a WLL of 3,900lbs.)

As to chain, & it's strength, check the ACCO page, for the correct numbers. As the ones which you say you're quoting from the Rocna page are incorrect.
ACCO states that 12mm G4 has a WLL of 4174kg (or 9200lbs). And for 8mm G4, 1770kg (or 3,900lbs). Peerless Industrial Group :: Marine Chain and Accessories :: ACCO Marine Chain :: ACCO Windlass Chains :: ACCO G43 Domestic High Test ISO Chain
So it ain't my math or figures which are off.

So I think/feel 10mm g7 is the right (minimum) choice for our boat.

I would definitely like to hear if you - or anyone - still disagrees! It certainly wouldn't be the first time that I erred too far on the side of safety!!

Thanks all...

As to chain choices, none of the above withstanding. By going to 10mm chain, yes, you can fit a significantly greater amount into your chain locker, as compared to 12mm, without question.

That said, I'm thinking that 10mm G4 would be fine for you. Especially as it was sufficient for a well known Van de Stadt 47', which weighs 30,000lbs, empty & dry. And it was cruised in some places with undisputably harsh anchoring conditions.

The boat I'm referring to, is none other than Hawk, Beth Leonard & Evans Starzinger's boat, the spec's on which can be seen here S/V Hawk

[CookiesnTequila]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

As to chain choices, none of the above withstanding. By going to 10mm chain, yes, you can fit a significantly greater amount into your chain locker, as compared to 12mm, without question.

That said, I'm thinking that 10mm G4 would be fine for you. Especially as it was sufficient for a well known Van de Stadt 47', which weighs 30,000lbs, empty & dry. And it was cruised in some places with undisputably harsh anchoring conditions.

The boat I'm referring to, is none other than Hawk, Beth Leonard & Evans Starzinger's boat, the spec's on which can be seen here S/V Hawk

We are 1/3 heavier than Hawk (40,000 lbs empty and dry), have twice the beam, and with our bridgedeck, over and above our probably 25% higher freeboard, I bet we have at least 4 x the windage of a Van de Stadt 47!

I think I'll stick to Rocna's sizing tables, which say 12mm g4 (which is also what the builder Catana says) or 10mm G7.

[CookiesnTequila]

Originally Posted by Schooner Chandlery

Flaking the chain:

With 500' of 1/2" BBB chain, we know it can pile up. We have a huge chain locker but that pile can go straight up if left to it's own devices. If

Where do we get a you, and how much does one cost??

500' that is most interesting, and very neatly done locker BTW! I wish we had room for that much chain as well - it opens up so many more anchoring possibilities!

You must have a very strong windlass then - do you use the windlass to pull the boat to the anchor as you are lifting it? Ours is very strong also, and can do it comfortably most of the time, but not in heavy winds or chop. So my wife is always on the helm maneuvering the boat as I work the windlass up front.

[Schooner Chandlery]

Originally Posted by CookiesnTequila

Where do we get a you, and how much does one cost??

500' that is most interesting, and very neatly done locker BTW! I wish we had room for that much chain as well - it opens up so many more anchoring possibilities!

You must have a very strong windlass then - do you use the windlass to pull the boat to the anchor as you are lifting it? Ours is very strong also, and can do it comfortably most of the time, but not in heavy winds or chop. So my wife is always on the helm maneuvering the boat as I work the windlass up front.

About that 500 ft:
The previous owner of our boat bought the chain. We'd probably have purchased a smaller quantity of chain (300 ft) and used it with rode. Glad we didn't have to make that decision since we love having 500' all chain.

Windlass:

We have a hefty 32V horizontal Ideal Windlass, 60's era with a newer motor (you can see it in one of the pics in this recent blog post on the SC Blog). I called the manufacturer to make sure the windlass would be OK for us. It came with the boat. From that mfr, we would have to go to 120VAC to get a more powerful one that would dead lift to our spec (2000lb). Note--the company informed us that we would be limited to 15 minutes per lift if we do not have some kind of active cooling for the windlass motor.

We do not use the windlass to move the boat towards the anchor unless it is dead calm and one of us is below flaking chain. This is why the last 200 ft of chain never gets flaked into our locker when we have a lot out. This windlass does have a manual ratchet arm that can be put in place and used if for some reason the engine were unavailable for moving the boat or the electric motor not working on the windlass. We did have an electric motor failure in 2013 and used the windlass manually while getting the original motor rebuilt. That takes patience but isn't really hard work. You just sit find a way to ergonomically sit on the foredeck with your coffee, enjoy the scenery and patiently crank away. Our fordeck has a little doghouse (we call it the scuttle) that is a great sit-spot for that purpose.

About the space for anchor locker--the boat originally had a nice size forecastle and somewhere in the middle of it's use, someone had converted that to living space but we converted it back to a functional forecastle. We did also make it into a wet room with shower sump so we have a shower curtain and take showers in the forecastle--much better than the old system of turning the head into a shower. That was the extent of our living space vs functional space compromise in the bow of the boat. Newer boats than ours (our was originally launched in 1931) do tend to have functional spaces crammed in and huge *living* space below decks in ways that only appeal/make sense to people who spend more time at the dock than at sea, IMO.

A lot of people do find ways to flake the chain into their (even difficult to get to) anchor lockers. One person we know with a big CT54 does it (locker in front of the V-berth) I also know a friend who had a pipe that runs from his (smallish) anchor locker back to another locker under a berth. He keeps 300' of chain in the second locker on a reel of some sort and 300' of chain in the primary locker. In theory, he can put out the first 300', and if he needs more it will feed from the second locker cleanly. I don't know quite how he did it--but I've hear of other people doing similar.

I hope you figure out an excellent solution for your situation.