Correct Cordage for Attaching Bitter End of Chain

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Panope

I figured chafe sleeve might to creep up or down the dyneema when rubbing on the bobstay because the point of contact will grow and shrink as the bow pitches. Would a something like a lock stitch be enough to keep it in place?

Had not heard of MaxiJacket. Might have to pick up a jar. Does that product make the line noticably stiffer?

Steve

I have found that the best way to avoid bobstay chafe is to bypass it entirely by fixing a strong fairlead to the bobstay chainplate, and running your snubber though that. You could even permanently fix a snubber to the bobstay fitting, if having a piece of line there (pulled tight up to the rail and fixed, of course) while underway was tolerable. On my next refit, I'm going to refine my bobstay chainplate system to accomodate that better, now that I'm convinced of its value after much use.
There's no reason that it couldn't be pre-rigged with a little ingenuety.
If you can't find Maxijacket, Marlow's Armourcoat is the same thing.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by foreverfreedom

We thought about this in a slightly different way. We use a piece of 3 strand 12mm nylon at the bitter-end, about 10 feet long. This is not secured in the anchor locker but is there merely to allow easy manipulation of the end of the chain. The final 5 meters of chain is painted solid red, and we don't use red anywhere else on the chain. When we anchor, we first attach a 10 meter length of 12mm nylon rope to the starboard bow cleat. To this is already attached a chain hook at one end, a large fender at the other, and another 10 meter length with a shackle. If we have to dump the chain for any reason, the chain hook goes straight onto the chain to secure it, then the chain is bought up from the chain locker and the shackle on the other piece of rope attached to the fender is attached to the chain any where that is convenient. Then the whole lot can be let go - and, hopefully, all recovered in due course. So far we have never had to use it!

That sounds reasonable, but the big drawback of this is that nothing will stop the chain from running all the way out and being lost in case for some reason you lose control of it or something gives way without your realizing it. Lots of ways for that to happen:


1. Snubber chafes through in the night and you don't use a chain lock.


2. You haven't put the chain lock or snubber on yet, and the clutch slips while you're messing with something aft.


3. Windlass malfunctions and gets stuck on "down" -- this has happened to me.


4. You're backing down on the anchor with almost all the chain out, and the clutch slips (I always lock the chain before backing down, but not everyone does).


5. etc.



The 10 meters of 12mm nylon sounds great, but if I were you I would certainly secure the end of that in the chain locker.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I wouldn't advise that, actually.


If the chain stays engaged in the gypsy, then if the windlass is stuck on or if you're powering it down and don't notice you reached the end (guilty as charged), you'll rip the thin line out of the eye bolt and lose your chain.


You certainly want the thin line to come out the spurling pipe and let the chain off the gypsy, so you can pull the chain back on board if it was let out accidentally.

I have my chain marked with many zip ties (looks like a porcupine) about 10’ before the end so if I’m powering down it would be nearly impossible to miss that and rip out the eye bolt. But if you’re worried about doing that causing you to lose your chain you could tie a foot long piece of stainless pipe in the middle with your thin line just above your eye bolt so it would catch when it reached deck level. But if you’ve marked (with zip ties or paint or other means) I think the likelihood of continuing to power down past that is close to nil. Much more likely to happen because your windlass clutch can’t handle the forces due to very strong winds while you’re anchoring or once anchored due to a snubber that slips on the chain or has broken.

Once your chain is off your gypsy you now have the added problem of getting it back on the gypsy before you can retrieve it if you determine that’s what is needed. In calm winds that might be easy but if the reason you’ve unintentionally reached the end of your chain is very strong winds or a snubber that’s slipped or broken, you’ve got a problem that could have been easily avoided. Better to preserve that option by fastening the thin line at a point 3 or 4 feet before the end so the chain remains engaged with the gypsy. If you want to get rid of it, in either case you’re going to have to cut your thin line and at that point it’s a simple thing to simply loosen the clutch so the remaining 3’ or 4’ pays out and your chain goes overboard.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

I have my chain marked with many zip ties (looks like a porcupine) about 10’ before the end so if I’m powering down it would be nearly impossible to miss that and rip out the eye bolt. But if you’re worried about doing that causing you to lose your chain you could tie a foot long piece of stainless pipe in the middle with your thin line just above your eye bolt so it would catch when it reached deck level. But if you’ve marked (with zip ties or paint or other means) I think the likelihood of continuing to power down past that is close to nil. Much more likely to happen because your windlass clutch can’t handle the forces due to very strong winds while you’re anchoring or once anchored due to a snubber that slips on the chain or has broken.

Once your chain is off your gypsy you now have the added problem of getting it back on the gypsy before you can retrieve it if you determine that’s what is needed. In calm winds that might be easy but if the reason you’ve unintentionally reached the end of your chain is very strong winds or a snubber that’s slipped or broken, you’ve got a problem that could have been easily avoided. Better to preserve that option by fastening the thin line at a point 3 or 4 feet before the end so the chain remains engaged with the gypsy. If you want to get rid of it, in either case you’re going to have to cut your thin line and at that point it’s a simple thing to simply loosen the clutch so the remaining 3’ or 4’ pays out and your chain goes overboard.

To each his own, but can you really not imagine a case where the windlass gets stuck on or you simply don't see it running out? A technical failure, or some big distraction just at the crucial moment?


The classical arrangement is for the chain to run off the gypsy before the rope comes to an end, and I wouldn't change that on my boat. YMMV. Getting the chain back on the gypsy would be easy even in strong conditions -- rolling hitch on the chain with line led back to an electric winch, pull it back until it engages with the windlass, and you're good. But not if the line has been torn off the eyebolt and the whole thing runs out and into the sea.

[malbert73]

Good point regarding shock loads which I hadn’t considered. I currently have a bright orange 40 foot length of dyneema (winch cable from Amazon) at the end of my chain. Yes it will take longer to cut but I like that it should be strong enough to hold the boat.
I am hopeful that because the chain will hit the ground before dyneema is done running out, and the catenary of 200 feet of chain, will mitigate shock load risk. I like that the dyneema will also float so if I don’t have time to tie on a bumper- I can retrieve the rode later.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

To each his own, but can you really not imagine a case where the windlass gets stuck on or you simply don't see it running out? A technical failure, or some big distraction just at the crucial moment?


The classical arrangement is for the chain to run off the gypsy before the rope comes to an end, and I wouldn't change that on my boat. YMMV. Getting the chain back on the gypsy would be easy even in strong conditions -- rolling hitch on the chain with line led back to an electric winch, pull it back until it engages with the windlass, and you're good. But not if the line has been torn off the eyebolt and the whole thing runs out and into the sea.

Yes, obviously if your eyebolt is ripped out snd your chain lost overboard it’s going to be difficult to get it back. But what does that have to do with where you attach your thin line to on the chain? Also, in my last post I mentioned a way to avoid the possibility of losing your chain overboard no matter where you attach to your chain by tying on something large enough to not fit up through the deck opening such as a length of stainless pipe. If the worse scenario happens while powering your chain out so the steel pipe is pulled up flush against the underside of your deck, your windlass motor will stall and it’s cb will trip. No big deal.

Yes, I can well imagine anything governed by an electronic switch getting stuck on, but that’s why we have circuit breakers. Whether letting my chain out or pulling it in, I operate my windlass in short bursts with several seconds of rest period in between to ensure it doesn’t overheat so it’s extremely, extremely unlikely that this very rare failure of your windlass switch will happen on the also very rare occasion you are anchoring in such deep water you are even getting near using the last 10’ or so. If it happens at another time it’s a pretty simple matter to scoot down below and open your windlass cb long before reaching the end of your chain.

When I’m letting out chain during the anchoring process I usually don’t power down anyway. I just let it pay out as my boat drifts backwards, controlling the speed it goes overboard by loosening/tightening the clutch with a winch handle. This avoids any chance of a switch failure becoming a problem while letting out chain. Also, since I’m standing or sometimes kneeling over my windlass during this process and I’d be aware that I’m into my last 50’ of chain, there’s pretty close to no chance that I’d miss my 10’ warning “porcupine” as it emerges from below deck.

My boat also has a remote control for the windlass back in the cockpit but I’ve never used it even when anchoring singlehanded. I prefer to be on the foredeck where I can see what’s going on. I can see it might be useful for retrieving the anchor while singlehanding in a congested anchorage where I was concerned with the possibility of colliding with other boats.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

Yes, obviously if your eyebolt is ripped out snd your chain lost overboard it’s going to be difficult to get it back. But what does that have to do with where you attach your thin line to on the chain?

If the thin line is attached to the end of the chain, and is long enough to run out, then your windlass can't rip it out of the eyebolt. I think that's the reasoning behind the way it's done in original builds of all modern cruising boats I've seen.

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

Also, in my last post I mentioned a way to avoid the possibility of losing your chain overboard no matter where you attach to your chain by tying on something large enough to not fit up through the deck opening such as a length of stainless pipe. If the worse scenario happens while powering your chain out so the steel pipe is pulled up flush against the underside of your deck, your windlass motor will stall and it’s cb will trip. No big deal.

Yes, I suppose that's one way of doing it. I can imagine some potential for damage, however, whereas doing it the standard way won't damage anything.

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

Yes, I can well imagine anything governed by an electronic switch getting stuck on, but that’s why we have circuit breakers.

Are you sure the breaker will operate before a thin rope is torn out of an eyebolt? My windlass is good for a couple of tons of pulling force; I'm pretty sure it wouldn't blink an eye.

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

Whether letting my chain out or pulling it in, I operate my windlass in short bursts with several seconds of rest period in between to ensure it doesn’t overheat so it’s extremely, extremely unlikely that this very rare failure of your windlass switch will happen on the also very rare occasion you are anchoring in such deep water you are even getting near using the last 10’ or so. If it happens at another time it’s a pretty simple matter to scoot down below and open your windlass cb long before reaching the end of your chain. When I’m letting out chain during the anchoring process I usually don’t power down anyway. I just let it pay out as my boat drifts backwards, controlling the speed it goes overboard by loosening/tightening the clutch with a winch handle. This avoids any chance of a switch failure becoming a problem while letting out chain.

Well, sure, I guess everyone will have his own view of the odds of failure, and some will discount it, which might be reasonable.

My chain is 12mm and weighs 330kg. I power it up and down and run it continuously when needed. From the bow, it will take me some time to get back and get below to flip the breaker, especially if it's stormy and the companionway is closed.

Having actually experienced my windlass getting stuck in "down", I don't discount this risk, and so I'm glad to keep the arrangement as designed by the boat's designer, which was specifically designed this way. This is maybe a small risk but of a very bad thing happening. Balanced against the risk of the chain running out and having to get it back into the gypsy, which is a trivial operation, I take the latter. YMMV.

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

Also, since I’m standing or sometimes kneeling over my windlass during this process and I’d be aware that I’m into my last 50’ of chain, there’s pretty close to no chance that I’d miss my 10’ warning “porcupine” as it emerges from below deck.

My boat also has a remote control for the windlass back in the cockpit but I’ve never used it even when anchoring singlehanded. I prefer to be on the foredeck where I can see what’s going on. I can see it might be useful for retrieving the anchor while singlehanding in a congested anchorage where I was concerned with the possibility of colliding with other boats.

When I'm single handed, and even when not, I often use the helm control for my windlass. I find it very useful to be able to pay the chain in or out and control the boat's motion and heading (with the bow thruster) at the same time. If I have crew, I often prefer to post a spotter at the bow to keep an eye on things and call out the marks on the chain, but controlling everything myself from the helm. The downside of this is that you can't see as well what is going on so increases the risk of something like inadvertently running all your chain out, which as I said, has actually happened to me.

But the way my boat is set up, this is a really trivial problem. If it happens (and it has), the windlass disengages, preventing any damage. You put a rolling hitch a meter or so ahead of the end of the chain, and then pull that back, creating slack (use an electric winch in strong weather). Then you pull the loose end of the chain onto the windlass with the thin line by pulling down on it from the chain locker, then turn on the windlass. Very simple and safe, even single handed.

[Panope]

Originally Posted by Benz

I have found that the best way to avoid bobstay chafe is to bypass it entirely by fixing a strong fairlead to the bobstay chainplate, and running your snubber though that. You could even permanently fix a snubber to the bobstay fitting, if having a piece of line there (pulled tight up to the rail and fixed, of course) while underway was tolerable. On my next refit, I'm going to refine my bobstay chainplate system to accomodate that better, now that I'm convinced of its value after much use.
There's no reason that it couldn't be pre-rigged with a little ingenuety.
If you can't find Maxijacket, Marlow's Armourcoat is the same thing.

Perhaps even better than attaching the rode at the bobstay chainplate, is having a bobstay that can be triced up and completely out of the way.

It just so happens that I am finishing a new pivoting bowsprit for my own boat. Dyneema bobstay is fitted with strong tackle.

Old school - modern materials.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Panope

Perhaps even better than attaching the rode at the bobstay chainplate, is having a bobstay that can be triced up and completely out of the way.

It just so happens that I am finishing a new pivoting bowsprit for my own boat. Dyneema bobstay is fitted with strong tackle.

Old school - modern materials.

I would beef up the bobstay chainplate and use that for snubber attachment point. It is right at the waterline, increasing holding power enormously.

[Panope]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I would beef up the bobstay chainplate and use that for snubber attachment point. It is right at the waterline, increasing holding power enormously.

I could do that, for sure.

But, the increase in holding power in my cruising area will be negligible as the tides/water depths are too great to have a meaningful affect on scope.

For example, a typical short scope "shallow" water situation will have 26' depth + 4 foot bow roller = 30'. With 105' of rode we have a scope of 3.5:1. If I attach the rode at the waterline (bobstay chainplate), the scope only increases to 4:1.

Again, 26 feet of water is quite shallow for many boats as our tides are 15 feet, and in some areas, 20 feet. Very often anchorage depths are well into the 30 or 40 foot range - further diminishing the value of a waterline rode attach point.

But, for a shallow water cruising area, I get it. If anchored in 8 feet of water I would gain 50% greater scope. THAT really would make a big difference.

Steve

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Panope

I could do that, for sure.

But, the increase in holding power in my cruising area will be negligible as the tides/water depths are too great to have a meaningful affect on scope.

For example, a typical short scope "shallow" water situation will have 26' depth + 4 foot bow roller = 30'. With 105' of rode we have a scope of 3.5:1. If I attach the rode at the waterline (bobstay chainplate), the scope only increases to 4:1.

Again, 26 feet of water is quite shallow for many boats as our tides are 15 feet, and in some areas, 20 feet. Very often anchorage depths are well into the 30 or 40 foot range - further diminishing the value of a waterline rode attach point.

But, for a shallow water cruising area, I get it. If anchored in 8 feet of water I would gain 50% greater scope. THAT really would make a big difference.

Steve

You can also look at it like this: 4’ above waterline for a 5:1 scope means 20’ extra chain required for equal scope. 20’ is not nothing

[Sonosailor]

Originally Posted by Chris Cringle

On the inboard end of 300 feet of 3/8 bbb, I chain spliced 100 feet of 5/8 inch three strand nylon which was belayed in the chain locker. If the chain ran out, there was 100 feet of backup which would roll over the gypsy. If the entire 400 foot rode ran out, the springy nylon would prevent shock. And in an emergency, the nylon was quick and easy to cut. To recover the anchor, the nylon line was easy to lead to the rope gypsy. This system allowed me to safely anchor in 80 feet of water with a 5:1 scope.

IMHO, your answer is the correct one! As the owner of a small cat in the Caribbean, I use less heavy chain to control the weight and still hold in most bays, and 100' of heavy nylon to handle other and emergency situations. The nylon triple-braid is connected to the boat inside the locker with heavy lashings.

[jtsailjt]

I think that’s a great solution too and I’d switch to that from my current thin Dyneema arrangement if there was room in my chain locker. But unfortunately, with my 300’ of chain there’s barely enough height available as it is. Anytime I’ve let out more than about 100’ of chain I have to dash down below at some point during the retrieval to knock over the pyramid that builds up. So I’m afraid that adding anything underneath my chain would result in even less height available so would exacerbate my chain stacking problem. But if not for that I’d definitely make the switch to about a 100’ of nylon tail on my current all chain rode.

[Sonosailor]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

I think that’s a great solution too and I’d switch to that from my current thin Dyneema arrangement if there was room in my chain locker. But unfortunately, with my 300’ of chain there’s barely enough height available as it is. Anytime I’ve let out more than about 100’ of chain I have to dash down below at some point during the retrieval to knock over the pyramid that builds up. So I’m afraid that adding anything underneath my chain would result in even less height available so would exacerbate my chain stacking problem. But if not for that I’d definitely make the switch to about a 100’ of nylon tail on my current all chain rode.

I had a little more room in my locker to the side, and, I also settled for 100’ less chain. Still, when I deploy the rope, I stop after retrieving it, throw it to the side, and then bring up the chain. As I don’t anchor that deep very often, I can take the time to organize the rope to the side before the next deployment. Still, I have a little catamaran, and a monohull likely has no room to the side. Thinking out of the box: you still can consider a dozen feet of nylon as the last thing that comes out of the locker, so it is easily attached to the boat and provides a shock-manager. Good luck with your choice.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Panope

Perhaps even better than attaching the rode at the bobstay chainplate, is having a bobstay that can be triced up and completely out of the way.

It just so happens that I am finishing a new pivoting bowsprit for my own boat. Dyneema bobstay is fitted with strong tackle.

Old school - modern materials.

Sweet. I'm toying with that same idea but for a retractable bowsprit. I know raceboats do retractable all the time, but those tend to be lighter and often broken. I want to go full bowsprit strength but retract in marinas and small northern harbors where space is limited or footage expensive.