Cockpit lazarette as primary anchor locker?

[brownoarsman]

Another anchor thread, but with a twist! What I've researched online about anchor lockers has often been about boats much bigger and better equipped than my recently acquired P28-1, displacement about 9,000 lbs loaded, hand-over-hand retrieval, no windlass. (I'm youngish and in great shape ) The boat currently has a lightweight on a short chain leader followed by 3-strand.

I've bought 70 feet of 5/16 chain and a 22 lb Bruce. On the P26s I sailed in Boston Harbor, which also lacked anchor lockers, we kept the Danforths in the anchor lockers, and when we needed them, just tied one end up at the bow outside the lifelines, and tossed the rest over the side, anchor first (I kid, we tossed the anchor out and then gradually backed down, until applying reverse at 50:1 scope, took about 3 hours). This worked very well but the rode was mostly 3-strand, not chain, and the anchors were light. I'd like to adopt this system for the Bruce, as the foredeck is very narrow and very crowded, and adding a roller or a platform would involve surgery to the bow chocks, cleats, pulpit, hawsehole, and bulwark. Pros for this system are that while retrieving, I would be next to the tiller, sail, and engine controls. Also the 3-strand will stay dry and coiled mostly, rather than kinked up and gross at the bottom of an anchor locker. The lazarette anchor locker I added is a plastic tote with a hose running to the bilge, so cleaning it is as easy as lifting it out and giving it a bath. It also keeps weight out of the bow, which is a concern as holding and water tanks are up there, and the dinghy stores forward on passage. Cons are that the angle of attack won't be great from the cockpit (though I can use the pulpit mounted bow roller and flake chain on deck), and I stand a good chance of destroying the very recent awlgrip and anti-skid job over time. Are there any other cons I'm missing? Are there any other new gen anchors that will bracket onto a pulpit that I could just replace the Danforth with? The only one I've found is the fortress, but that suffers from the same problem as the Danforths I believe in not resetting well. If I throw 70' of chain on the current pulpit-mounted Danforth are all my problems solved?

As far as the boat's anchoring history, the PO of this boat used a lightweight/Danforth in a bracket on the bow pulpit, with two fifteen or so foot lengths of chain shackled together (moused shackles) with three strand rode, which descended into the bow locker through a hawse hole. With a kellet, this held him all up and down the gulf coast, including in current-heavy ICW anchorages. Previous owners used the same anchor/rode combo, but sometimes added a second Danforth from the lazarette Bahamanian style. I've been using the single Danforth so far (mostly so I don't have to deal with hauling chain by hand), and while I'm convinced the anchor has dragged a couple times, it always seems to reset in the soft sand/mud bottoms common here and lightish winds.

Thanks for the help!

[brownoarsman]

Forgot to include it, I did find one example of a pulpit-mounted Bruce, attached here. However, I can't find anyone selling a mount like this, and the blog itself describes it as custom. Any suggestions for a quick copy? Lots of string?

[phantomracer]

Our Ohlson 38 has no anchor locker (the previous owner decked over it. The anchor stays on a custom bow roller. I bring the rode (6' chain, 200' rope) to the bow when we go to anchor (kept in a rode bag in a cockpit locker)

Works for me



switched from a CQR to a spade anchor due to the inability to reset during a wind shift. Spade has been working great. perfect for our hard mud and grass, some sand bottoms here. soft mud the fortress with the flukes set at a higher angle is unstoppable, but won't reset in most other conditions.

But I have no problem bringing the rode up when I need to anchor.

[brownoarsman]

Do you flake the rode on deck or pile it in the bag as you bring it up? Your deck looks in great shape so it can't be getting too banged up


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[phantomracer]

Originally Posted by brownoarsman

Do you flake the rode on deck or pile it in the bag as you bring it up? Your deck looks in great shape so it can't be getting too banged up

I use a rode bag. The rope rode I use is double braided, not twisted, so it is pretty easy to manage. This is what I purchased (large one) http://www.westmarine.com/west-marin...05_151_003_506 Works quite well. One of the more reasonably priced items at WM.

When pulling up the anchor, I just shove it in the bag, trying to make it neat as possible, so it comes out easy the next time. With so little chain, it is quite easy to manage. Since we have few areas that have very rocky bottoms, and using a modern anchor, more chain is not needed.

Having the 21# aluminum spade anchor (or our old 35# CQR), pulling up the anchor has never been a problem.

[ctl411]

The mount in your picture could be duplicated with a piece of stainless strap and a shackle. I have been tying our anchor to the bow pulpit until I get around to replacing the anchor pulpit ( lost in a storm at dock before we bought). It's a pain to hoist by hand and tie up but works.

[JPA Cate]

In that soft mud you refer to, I'd think the 20 lb. Danforth might out perform the Bruce.

Our old Bruce had difficulty with soupy mud. It also failed to re-set once after it let go in a good sand bottom.

Perhaps, you can figure out a way to make chocks for the Bruce to lie in and be tied down, forward. If your new chain will work with the old hawse hole, maybe you can get that set up for easy release and retrieval. You could fiberglass in a pad for a pad eye to shackle or tie the bitter end of the rode to.

Some kind of a cradle for the Bruce and using a rode bag might work, yet it makes anchoring that much more complicated, plus the bitter end has to be secured to the boat separately. One possible problem with the Bruce hung up like that is that its flukes may snag jib or spinnaker sheets when gybing, or even if a tack gets messy.

Have fun with it. The real thing is that when the problem is solved, the whole deal will be easy and flow smoothly.

Ann

[Reefmagnet]

Originally Posted by brownoarsman

Forgot to include it, I did find one example of a pulpit-mounted Bruce, attached here. However, I can't find anyone selling a mount like this, and the blog itself describes it as custom. Any suggestions for a quick copy? Lots of string?

I've used PVC plumbing pipe attached to the bowrail with 2 or 3 stainless hose clamps. The inside diameter accommodates the anchor shank and the chain. 4" diameter pipe was probably around the size.

[brownoarsman]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone! The pvc pipe on the bowsprit seems like the easiest solution. I assume the shank goes in to the pipe with the rode, and then the rode sticks out the top too?
For those that routinely shackle and unshackle rode to anchors, how do you keep a good fit with the shackle? Mouse it with a zip tie?
I had initially thought of putting chocks in too, Anne, but the inflatable I have is monstrous, over a third the size of the actual boat itself! To be honest, it makes going up to the fore peak a touch unsafe under passage (I've been trialling her on the way to the keys so had her beating into 7 ft five second seas while I walked around the deck to see how she felt). Do you think the Bruce is a bad choice for the Bahamas/windwards? The boats i chartered in the BVIs had Bruce primaries which is why I chose this one; but at $145 it wasn't exactly a steal and I'd be happy to return it for a newer new gen. I've been surprised at the danforth resetting itself. A few isolated thunderstorms the last few days that kick the wind up in a 360 degree turn, and the danforth seems to either shuffle round or at least keep one fluke buried when I dove it afterwards.


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[Reefmagnet]

Originally Posted by brownoarsman

...The pvc pipe on the bowsprit seems like the easiest solution. I assume the shank goes in to the pipe with the rode, and then the rode sticks out the top too?

Originally Posted by brownoarsman

For those that routinely shackle and unshackle rode to anchors, how do you keep a good fit with the shackle? Mouse it with a zip tie?

Although best to not do / undo at all. Personally my worst nightmare at anchor is the shackle coming undone. Zip ties don't need too much of a knock to shear but are better than nothing. I'd almost be happy with thread locker (a.k.a. loctite red) which is probably more effective but have never tried it personally for that purpose.

... Oh, and anchors are like religion. There are many and the devotees of each say their's is the best. Use whatever you are most confident with.

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by brownoarsman

Thanks for the suggestions everyone! The pvc pipe on the bowsprit seems like the easiest solution. I assume the shank goes in to the pipe with the rode, and then the rode sticks out the top too?
For those that routinely shackle and unshackle rode to anchors, how do you keep a good fit with the shackle? Mouse it with a zip tie?
I had initially thought of putting chocks in too, Anne, but the inflatable I have is monstrous, over a third the size of the actual boat itself! To be honest, it makes going up to the fore peak a touch unsafe under passage (I've been trialling her on the way to the keys so had her beating into 7 ft five second seas while I walked around the deck to see how she felt).

Do you think the Bruce is a bad choice for the Bahamas/windwards? No, not at all. Our Bruce mainly did find in firm sand and soft sand, most of the time.

The boats i chartered in the BVIs had Bruce primaries which is why I chose this one; but at $145 it wasn't exactly a steal and I'd be happy to return it for a newer new gen. I've been surprised at the danforth resetting itself.

[COLOR="rgb(65, 105, 225)"]A Danforth will reset as long as something like a shell or beer can doesn't get wedged so the flukes can't shift over.[/COLOR]


A few isolated thunderstorms the last few days that kick the wind up in a 360 degree turn, and the danforth seems to either shuffle round or at least keep one fluke buried when I dove it afterwards.

That's interesting, haven't had that experience, so not qualified to answer the implied question, sorry. Sounds cool, though.


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You know, "horses for courses." We had generally good use from our Bruce. It had a contretemps with an abandoned mooring that bent a fluke, and subsequently, we did not trust it as much, replaced it with a 30 k. claw from China; and then that was replaced by our Manson Supreme, which has worked well for us, but has dragged in 50+ knots in unfirm mud. Actually, I think no anchor is drag-proof; ultimately there is a wind speed that will dislodge it. However, there is some indication that our Supreme keeps on diving in certain conditions, and I am sure that as long as the wind blew in the same direction some of the giant Fortresses would also not drag.

One time in winds over 55, we had dragged with our Manson, and took our the old 20 lb. HT Danforth (from the Yankee 30), in a "Y" shape, and with the two anchors out, we did not drag again. When we got them up, it was obvious that the Danforth was in denser muck than the Manson. So remember when talking about it all, that various spots in one anchorage may have somewhat different bottom conditions. One does the best one can, and occasionally has to shift.

Ann

PS. My Dad went to Brown, and my Mom, to Pembroke. ;-)

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by brownoarsman

Are there any other new gen anchors that will bracket onto a pulpit that I could just replace the Danforth with? The only one I've found is the fortress, but that suffers from the same problem as the Danforths I believe in not resetting well. If I throw 70' of chain on the current pulpit-mounted Danforth are all my problems solved?

Can't speak to your overall question, but I can say the whole resetting bugaboo about properly set Fortress anchors of appropriate size for the situation and in appropriate holding ground... isn't really all that big a deal. Yes, currents, winds, and tides reverse, but we've not really had any problems even in extreme reversals. Not saying it can't happen; just pointing out the "problem" is often more theoretical than actual -- assuming proper anchoring technique and so forth.


The advantage of a Fortress over a Danforth is that you can use a larger (size) anchor for the same weight, and larger flukes are usually a good thing. (Or, for manual deployment/retrieval, you can use a lighter Fortress that's the same size (flukes) as your Danforth... assuming the Danforth is sized appropriately.) Another advantage is that you can dismantle it, carry it in its bag. Can't tell if either if those "advantages" would be useful for you or not.

-Chris

[brownoarsman]

Always good to hear from Bruno, Ann! It was a very beautiful place. Now if I could only find a way to add sweeps to this P28.

Interesting about the fortress, as that has largely been my experience with the danforth so far as well. I think having a short rather than long chain leader might be better for it, as the rode will lay straight and elevated in a blow and there's less chance of swirling the rode around the fluke perhaps.


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[phantomracer]

Originally Posted by Reefmagnet

Although best to not do / undo at all. Personally my worst nightmare at anchor is the shackle coming undone. Zip ties don't need too much of a knock to shear but are better than nothing. I'd almost be happy with thread locker (a.k.a. loctite red) which is probably more effective but have never tried it personally for that purpose.

... Oh, and anchors are like religion. There are many and the devotees of each say their's is the best. Use whatever you are most confident with.

When I anchor, I have always shackled/unshackled the anchor to the rode.

I just give the pin a good twist with a shackle wrench and never had a problem. Usually once the anchor gets buried, the grit seems to lock it in place, as it is always hard to undo once we pull it out.

In a quarter century of boating, never had a pin come out, or even loose, even a bit.

But yea.. anchors are very religious, as is rode choices, anchor techniques.. I know what works on our boat, in what conditions, in our local areas bottoms

To me, just about all anchors will set well in most conditions. It is resetting, if it gets popped out due to tide/wind change, that separates the men from the boys. Some are better than others.

[phantomracer]

Originally Posted by brownoarsman

Always good to hear from Bruno, Ann! It was a very beautiful place. Now if I could only find a way to add sweeps to this P28.

Interesting about the fortress, as that has largely been my experience with the danforth so far as well. I think having a short rather than long chain leader might be better for it, as the rode will lay straight and elevated in a blow and there's less chance of swirling the rode around the fluke perhaps.

In soft mud, Fortress recommends short, or no chain, to keep the anchor in the right orientation (rode above the anchor). I'd buy that.

I had good luck with the fortress in most bottoms with our last boat, other than in weeds. It also, often failed to reset a few times. The flukes set at 45 degrees greatly increases the fortress performance in soft mud.

IMO, In soft mud, the fortress is king. Every other bottom I have anchored in (never anchored in a rocky bottom though), I like the Spade, as it has never dragged on me, or failed to reset (or stay buried). That is, in the bottoms and conditions local to me, ymmv. (not trying to start a holy war on best anchors!).

We don't have a lot of soft mud around here, but I would just take the chain off if I were in soft mud (don't need the abrasion resistance the chain provides, as it is soft!) and use my fortress instead of the spade.

But it does seem the new generation of properly engineered anchors does seem to outperform the older style (cqr, etc).