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UNCIVILIZED · 30-04-2017, 12:11

Anchoring threads are super common, & quite popular on here. But rarely are cleats discussed much. And sadly, most production boats come with woefully undersize, & understrength cleats.
So... I'm curious what you've got in terms of:
- Cleat size (length in inches).
- Cleat number & location for; anchoring, docking, & mooring.
- Cleat material, as obviously some materials & alloys are much stronger than others.
- Fastener number & size per cleat.
- Backing plate; size, & material.
- Deck reinforcements; internal/integral, what material, extra laminate, stronger cores, or ???
- Who beefed things up, you or the builder? In terms of; cleat size, fasteners, backers, & or, deck strength.
- Also, if you like, give specifics on what you've got in terms of chocks, along much the same criteria above as are used for cleats.

Part of my quest, is also due to the fact that unfortunately, cleats, or what they're bolted to, are often the weak link in the system when a storm rolls through. Whether you're at anchor, or docked. And the loss of one or two can spell the loss of the vessel.

Also, those newer to boating, or who haven't worked on & around boats much, don't have a good idea of what constitutes a proper sized cleat. And whether or not it's mounted stoutly enough to withstand anything that it may see in terms of loads.
Here's an abysmal example; 10" 4-bolt cleats with naught but penny washers under the nuts, on a boat with a balsa cored deck. And no backing plates or structural reinforcements at all.

A short while back, Thinwater posted a table which showed the strength of a number of cleat types. And perhaps someone more computer savvy than me could re-post the table here. Though anyone's welcome to post info relavent to the thread's theme.
Here's the post --> http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2378655

Thanks!

zeehag · 01-05-2017, 06:52

the only cleat on my boat i trust is my midships cleat--it is a cleated hawse. i am seeking 5 more for installation into bow and cockpit and other midships cleat location.
the cleats that were installed into my boat before last owner bought her were undersized and inadequate. they did hold in hurricane patricia...i did break a dock cleat, but not one of my thought they would fail deck cleats, which are located in my bulwarks.
my cleats are supposed to be through bolted--we will see how they are thru bolted when i dig em out to install the new ones i have yet to purchase.
THEN i will post pix.
some previous owner had seen fit to remove any sign of chocks. aint got a one. none zip zero. might install some of those as well. i have a stainless plate where chain passes over the teak caprail forward.

senormechanico · 01-05-2017, 09:42

I replaced all four black anodized aluminum cleats on our boat with ss pop out flush cleats.

We just replaced our old wood dock with an aluminum one and this is an example of the new one's cleats.

Suijin · 01-05-2017, 10:02

I have six 10" stainless Herreshoff cleats, two each bow, stern, midships. They go through plywood reinforced deck and four 5/16" bolts are backed with 1" (I think) washers and 1/4" aluminum backing plates. At bow and stern they are positioned correctly for the four fully enclosed Perko hawsepipes through the toe rail. I don't have any question that these are strong enough, given my experience with the boat and a close examination of the hardware and mounting when I recently removed it for a deck refit.

I would give anything to not have to deal with the hawsepipes, which are a complete PITA. While they are great in that lines can't jump out, threading stuff through them is an unnecessary chore. When the Valiant 40 was redesigned into the 42 they did away with them and I am jealous.

All the cleats are off right now for my deck refit and when they go back on they are getting 1/4" G10 backing plates, about 50% larger than what they replace. The aluminum plates are serviceable but some corrosion was appearing.

The 10" Herreshoff can fit two 1/2" lines on them. I thought about going to 12" cleats bow and stern but there really is not room for them.

Pauls · 01-05-2017, 10:49

My cleats (bitts really) are welded from 316L pipe: 2.875 OD risers which are welded to the deck, penetrate 6" below the deck and are again welded to a plate welded to the hull side. The risers have a 1.05" dia cross bar. One of the advantages of a steel hull, they are very strong and very well tied into the hull structure.

Fence Man · 01-05-2017, 11:02

10"x1.5" machined aluminum welded to the 1/4" deck with a 1/4" backing plate. 5 port and 5 starboard. All are factory equipment.

barnakiel · 01-05-2017, 11:12

We have one center cleat and two bow cleats. The center one takes two full turns of 16 mm anchor line. The side cleats take one and a half turn.

All are of the plain bronze and teak style. The bow ones are backed simply with large pads of plywood and huge "washers". The center one has better backing with more plywood and even bigger "washers". None passes thru the sandwich.

The centerline of our deck is solid and so the only way to pull the center cleat would be to rip out a big 2x2 feet hole of the deck with the cleat. Possible but not likely.

http://www.seashop.be/images/big/13788_3273.png

There are BS copies of the design where the centerbolts have been substituted with 4 pass-thru bolts on the perimeter of each pole. Avoid.

Cheers,
b.

UNCIVILIZED · 01-05-2017, 11:48

Does anyone know how well G-10 does when it's threaded, & is subject to shock loads? Since, for example, aluminum sucks at this as compared to stainless.

**Cotemar** · 01-05-2017, 12:14

8 Stainless Steel cleats.

6 are 14 inch

2 bow cleats are 12 inch with M16 x 50 mm (2”) hex bolts

Backing plate is AL6061T6 Aluminum 8” Long x 4” Wide with 2 holes 5/8+ dia.
.
.

thinwater · 01-05-2017, 12:39

This is the table Uncivilized was referring to. It was produced by Boat US. I wish there was more funding for work like this. You have no idea how thin the money is spread with magazines....

[to post an image, right click on the image on a web page, left click on "save image location," and paste that in the URL box using the picture icon, above.]

I've looked for more data, since I was thinking of doing some testing for an article, but this is all I ever found. You would think vendors would rate them, wouldn't you, since they are critical items?

Although there is some scatter, it's pretty clear that it is mostly close to the shear strength of the fasteners, at least for 2-bolt cleats, so long as you don't pull up (which you never should). 4-bolt cleats, which many folks think are just great, can have the feet crack off. Given that the vendor is too scared to post strength data, can we trust them? I wish the answer was yes, but it cannot be until they post the test data. C is a weird anomaly.

Isn't it interesting that nylon is probably nearly as strong as stainless, after we correct for fastener size?

Thus, I'm conservatively assuming my 8" 2-bolt cleats with 5/16" fasteners are about 5000 pounds (perhaps more like 6000). Since they are used with 1/2 inch line, that's a bit lame. On the other hand, the WLL is probably about 1000 pounds (5x less), which is about the WLL for 1/2-inch line (the WLL of steel is 3-5x less than BS, but the WLL of nylon is about 12x less than BS), so really, that is not so bad.

In my case the backing is bonded into the deck, which I don't much like (3/8 x 3 x 10 under 5/16" solid triax glass). How do I know the size and overlayment? I tested them by ultrasound, which isn't much of an option for most folks. Are they threaded or are there nuts? I'm assuming they are threaded, but I have no way of knowing.

Am I OK with this? My anchoring load in a storm (60 knots), with a 35' snubber, is about 1300 pounds in an exposed anchorage (I tested this with a load cell. spread over a bridle, perhaps 1000 pounds/leg. That is right at the WLL, but is safe.

What about a drogue, sea anchor or JSD? A drogue is fine. The loads are not that high. A JSD or sea anchor, though, would require special chain plates, not because I'm paranoid, but because based on the above evaluation and based on what we know about JSDs (the "working" storm load would be about 1000 pounds per leg on steep waves, but a breaker would be far worse) they are under designed.

Your boat may differ. The beauty of the JSD plates is that they are easy to design, and that they distribute the load along a greater area of potentially unknown quality laminate. Sure, cleats could, in principle, be strong enough, but it is difficult to know. Have you ultrasound tested the laminate?

Boulter · 06-05-2017, 13:24

Hi:

All cleats on my Tanzer 22 are aluminium.

OEM single 8 inch bow cleat. I removed, potted the core, and installed a stepped backing plate bonded with epoxy to the ceiling, first layer about 3/16 thick 6x9 inches or thereabouts, second 3/16 layer an inch or two smaller in both dimensions. Four 1/4-20 SS screws.

OEM stern cleats are 6 inch as factory installed with 4 #10 screws. Eventually I will pull these, pot the core, and reinstall with a backing plate if possible. It may not be possible as the cleat footprint is just under the width of its mounting surface.

Just added two 8 inch midship cleats with 3/16 6x8 inch backing plates not bonded to the inside surface. Four 1/4-20 screws. If the location proves successful, I'll beef it up another season in a stepped fashion as was done with the bow cleat. If unsatisfactory for some reason, I just have 4 holes each side to fill and paint.

Boulter

Cottontop · 06-05-2017, 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinwater

This is the table Uncivilized was referring to. It was produced by Boat US. I wish there was more funding for work like this. You have no idea how thin the money is spread with magazines....

[to post an image, right click on the image on a web page, left click on "save image location," and paste that in the URL box using the picture icon, above.]

I've looked for more data, since I was thinking of doing some testing for an article, but this is all I ever found. You would think vendors would rate them, wouldn't you, since they are critical items?

Although there is some scatter, it's pretty clear that it is mostly close to the shear strength of the fasteners, at least for 2-bolt cleats, so long as you don't pull up (which you never should). 4-bolt cleats, which many folks think are just great, can have the feet crack off. Given that the vendor is too scared to post strength data, can we trust them? I wish the answer was yes, but it cannot be until they post the test data. C is a weird anomaly.

Isn't it interesting that nylon is probably nearly as strong as stainless, after we correct for fastener size?

Thus, I'm conservatively assuming my 8" 2-bolt cleats with 5/16" fasteners are about 5000 pounds (perhaps more like 6000). Since they are used with 1/2 inch line, that's a bit lame. On the other hand, the WLL is probably about 1000 pounds (5x less), which is about the WLL for 1/2-inch line (the WLL of steel is 3-5x less than BS, but the WLL of nylon is about 12x less than BS), so really, that is not so bad.

In my case the backing is bonded into the deck, which I don't much like (3/8 x 3 x 10 under 5/16" solid triax glass). How do I know the size and overlayment? I tested them by ultrasound, which isn't much of an option for most folks. Are they threaded or are there nuts? I'm assuming they are threaded, but I have no way of knowing.

Am I OK with this? My anchoring load in a storm (60 knots), with a 35' snubber, is about 1300 pounds in an exposed anchorage (I tested this with a load cell. spread over a bridle, perhaps 1000 pounds/leg. That is right at the WLL, but is safe.

What about a drogue, sea anchor or JSD? A drogue is fine. The loads are not that high. A JSD or sea anchor, though, would require special chain plates, not because I'm paranoid, but because based on the above evaluation and based on what we know about JSDs (the "working" storm load would be about 1000 pounds per leg on steep waves, but a breaker would be far worse) they are under designed.

Your boat may differ. The beauty of the JSD plates is that they are easy to design, and that they distribute the load along a greater area of potentially unknown quality laminate. Sure, cleats could, in principle, be strong enough, but it is difficult to know. Have you ultrasound tested the laminate?

Great info, but I'm not sure the data support nylon being almost as strong as stainless, corrected for fasteners.

UNCIVILIZED · 06-05-2017, 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boulter

Hi:

All cleats on my Tanzer 22 are aluminium.

OEM single 8 inch bow cleat. I removed, potted the core, and installed a stepped backing plate bonded with epoxy to the ceiling, first layer about 3/16 thick 6x9 inches or thereabouts, second 3/16 layer an inch or two smaller in both dimensions. Four 1/4-20 SS screws.

OEM stern cleats are 6 inch as factory installed with 4 #10 screws. Eventually I will pull these, pot the core, and reinstall with a backing plate if possible. It may not be possible as the cleat footprint is just under the width of its mounting surface.

Just added two 8 inch midship cleats with 3/16 6x8 inch backing plates not bonded to the inside surface. Four 1/4-20 screws. If the location proves successful, I'll beef it up another season in a stepped fashion as was done with the bow cleat. If unsatisfactory for some reason, I just have 4 holes each side to fill and paint.

Boulter

Bravo on the beefing up of things, & especially on the stepped backing plates.

One tip unknown to many, is that you can make some "DIY G-10" at home, using axials, resin, & a vacuum bag. It's not quite as tough as the store bought version, but for anything shy of using it to meet precise engineering spec's, it's more than good enough. And it's CHEAP. Plus the bagging step is optional.

The other nice part is that you can trim your backers out of it, & then grind them to fit & beveling their edges, off of the boat, after first making some cardboard templates. Then bonding it in place; with or without more reinforcing fabrics overtop of it. But either way, it becomes part of the deck laminate. And thus spreads out cleat & fastener loads far better than backers that are simply bolted into place. Especially since it's physical properties will more closely match those of your deck. Unlike the vast gap in strength & stiffness between stainless backers & cored GRP decks.