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Old 07-09-2016, 09:34   #106
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Re: Chain Stopper Install

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Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
If they are counterbored holes they must fit Allen head cap screws.

It's taken awhile for me to admit, but it has come back to this being a correct statement. I even contemplated having the counter bores enlarged.
The counter bore diameter is about .670, I have found internal wrenching SS nuts that have an outside diameter of .617, but only in course thread.
I wanted to bed the all thread into the Bowsprit and not drill through and use a backing plate, and that is best accomplished by setting in studs.
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Old 07-09-2016, 10:08   #107
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Re: Chain Stopper Install

Pilot, There appears to be a strong desire to produce chain stoppers that are compact. Presumably this is so they can be mounted on small spaces or even inside chain 'tracks' that some boats use. Unfortunately, this limits the size and style of attachment bolts and also the 'footprint' of the stopper itself is limited and therefore prone to crushing the mounting surface in extreme conditions.

In the case of the your boat with its large/wide bowsprit, a stopper with a large 'base-plate' and external mounting flanges might be more appropriate. The mounting holes could be any size or style. This would not be as 'slick' looking but in this case, function might trump form.

You might consider welding your stopper to a large plate of SS that is then bolted down with whatever fasteners you choose.

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Old 07-09-2016, 10:14   #108
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Re: Chain Stopper Install

I think the internal wrenching nut will work fine although a larger mounting base would probably be stronger.
I have the nuts coming, about $5 ea. and $15 shipping of course.

I intend like Frankly said to bed in nuts that should hopefully take a lot of the compressive load as teak is realitevly soft
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Old 07-09-2016, 10:43   #109
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Re: Chain Stopper Install

Those nuts ought to do the trick. I am sure your plan will be fine.

More needless brainstorming: An alternative to my 'welded plate' suggestion above, would be to use short, countersunk flat head bolts (pointing upward) and your new allen nuts to attach the stopper to a larger plate of any strong material (SS, AL, G-10 etc.).

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Old 07-09-2016, 11:05   #110
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Re: Chain Stopper Install

I had thought that too as I'm not sure how well cast will weld, I know it welds fine, just not sure how grainy the casting could be?
But I'm at the point now to where I just want to install the thing, gotta get onto other projects, but if it begins to crush the mounting then of course a wider base bolted on would be the next logical step.
I could I guess even cut out the teak and go in with a large .5" thick 316 steel plate, but that is likely just overkill.

I believe four 3/8" all thread bolts bedded in with nuts at the surface to take compression loads will be well in excess of my needs. I intend to use west 105 resin with their slow cure 209 hardener.
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Old 07-09-2016, 11:29   #111
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Re: Chain Stopper Install

[QUOTE=a64pilot;2207432]what are reduced wrenching nuts?

Airplane turbine engines have nothing else. They're all over modern planes. 3/8' nut would use a 7/16 wrench instead of 9/16.
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Old 07-09-2016, 11:41   #112
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Re: Chain Stopper Install

[QUOTE=Guy;2208045]
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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
what are reduced wrenching nuts?

Airplane turbine engines have nothing else. They're all over modern planes. 3/8' nut would use a 7/16 wrench instead of 9/16.
I know, have used them for many years, just always called them the nuts with the washers built in or gone by part number
Never knew the correct name A quick Google showed me.
Unfortunately while they will fit into the counter bore, even a thin 12 point socket will not.
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Old 09-09-2016, 03:53   #113
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Re: Chain Stopper Install

Very interesting and informative thread. Just secured a very traditional bronze chain stop from an old 50' Hatteras. Love bronze fittings. It is secured with six 1/2" bolts and is quite beefy. Trying to decide exactly where to place it. Have never had or used one before and think it will make lifting the hook much easier with the manual windlass.
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Old 09-09-2016, 06:05   #114
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Re: Chain Stopper Install

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Download a copy of the book from their website and read the chapter on hardware bonding. They hang keels on yachts with this stuff and no backing nuts.

Okay, this I've gotta' see. Literally. And what type of keel are you referring to? An old school, full length wooden one which forms the spine of the ship? Or something akin to a modern fin? As I'm having trouble seeing the latter.

I've seen plenty of keelbolts bonding in place, along with nuts & proper backing plates. But none yet sans nuts. As you'd have to drill oversized holes through the spine of the boat, & then lower the boat down onto all-thread set into the top of the keel, in lieu of bolts. And then pour epoxy down through the holes, over top of the all-thread, in order to bond the keel in place... Unless I'm missing something that is?

With all-thread being significantly weaker than bolts. Ditto on epoxy's strength vs. steel backing plates, most likely. Non? With proper backing plates being critical in many keel fastening applications, due to the compression & sheer loadings on the fasteners. Both bolts & nuts.

And is this covered in On Boat Construction? It's been a few years since I went through it cover to cover, but I don't recall this. Or perhaps it's on the WEST System site, somewhere? That or perhaps Epoxyworks, their sister site?

I added a 12" SS cleat right in the middle of my bowsprit. My teak runs a little father back so my windlass is aft and the cleat is probably just about where your windlass is located so it is thru bolted.
Why would you through bolt this cleat, which almost certainly has a bigger mounting footprint than the hardware which the OP's installing? And then suggest only bonding in the bolts for the chain stopper? Which almost certainly will see higher loads then this cleat, especially if it's put to the task as originally envisaged by the OP.
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Old 09-09-2016, 06:42   #115
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Re: Chain Stopper Install

I think every point I have made about a chain stopper is assuming it is primarily used to hold the anchor in the anchor roller not some armageddon attachment point for storm conditions.

Island Packets come with 2 large cleats thru bolted just behind the bowsprit. On Cbreeze these are 10" 4 bolt cleats and are the basis of attachment for my storm bridle set up. I added a third 12" cleat in the middle of the bowsprit which forms the basis of my single whip chain hook daily anchoring set up. I thru bolted it because I had access to the underside area and added a G10 backing plate.

Island Packet uses a deck coring material (polycore) that is impervious to rot except the bowsprit is cored with multiple layers of marine plywood (Douglas Fir I assume). This is one location that core rot is not replaceable. Bedding the chain stopper bolts in epoxy would minimize problems in this area.

Go read the Gougeon materials on using epoxy to reinforce/ improve wooden structures. Then you won't be arguing from a position of ignorance.
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Old 09-09-2016, 06:52   #116
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Re: Chain Stopper Install

In truth, I never expect to put all that much load on it, and compared to the cleats, I don't think that even if I attached the stopper to some immovable surface that the stopper would be as strong as a cleat, then take into account that if the stopper has the load, you are metal to metal, nothing to absorb shock loads, meaning in my opinion that if I lose my Nylon bridle and all forces then go to the stopper, no matter how it's attached its not going to survive long.
However, I do have a probably exaggerated fear of rot, seen it do in too many a good boat, and I will therefore go to inordinate lengths to ensure no moisture penetration into what wood there is.
Also I have in my mind that if potting in the chain stopper doesn't work, then I can always drill through and at that time put on a backing plate, the studs should be removable without too much force.
I have now been thinking that I ought to mount this thing in a tray of sorts, one that the chain can run in and not eat up the Teak.
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Old 12-12-2016, 12:18   #117
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Re: Chain Stopper Install

Well it's finally installed. I did thru bolt it, but what I did was to drill out the mounting holes to 7/16. Install the 3/8 all thread with large area washers underneath bedded in 5200 to make it a water tight seal, and then filled the hole with west epoxy and slow set hardener, there must have been some cracks or voids in the wood cause a couple of holes had to be refilled with epoxy after an hour or so to fill them to the top. Its sort of what Frankly suggested by casting them in, yet I hope stronger since they are thru bolted
I took a speed square and used hose clamps to attach a steel tube with 3/8" interior diameter and used that as a drill guide with a 12" bit, it did keep the holes square with the bowsprit.
I had to have a 1" block of 6061 T6 aluminum cut as a spacer to raise the stopper to where it was inline with the roller on the bow. Now I'm wondering if I should insulate the 6061 from the SS by something, either tefgel or maybe 5200? Maybe put a thin coat of 5200 on and let it dry before assembly? Do the same with Epoxy or is the Tefgel sufficient?
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Old 12-12-2016, 12:22   #118
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Re: Chain Stopper Install

Picture from above, the anchor "parks" in the bowsprit at a little angle, but the chain line through the chainstopper is straight when the chain is on the center of the roller.
I have yet to anchor with it, but it seems to work OK, least it does at the dock

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Old 12-12-2016, 16:05   #119
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Re: Chain Stopper Install

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.....I had to have a 1" block of 6061 T6 aluminum cut as a spacer to raise the stopper to where it was inline with the roller on the bow. Now I'm wondering if I should insulate the 6061 from the SS by something, either tefgel or maybe 5200? Maybe put a thin coat of 5200 on and let it dry before assembly? Do the same with Epoxy or is the Tefgel sufficient?
Not a good application for 5200. Someday this will need to come off and they will be cursing you heavily for gluing this down with the evil 5200. 5200 is only for permanent installations -- think keels.
Since you just need insulation, just cut a gasket from something like silicon rubber and place under the chainstopper. That's what's under mine.
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Old 12-12-2016, 16:22   #120
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Chain Stopper Install

The 5200 would be applied and allowed to cure, before assembly, making it a perfect fit rubber gasket, same with the Epoxy, painted on and allowed to cure, but it may be too brittle?
Tefgel of course doesn't dry or cure
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