Chain skipping on gypsy

[JPA Cate]

Hi, hpeer:

If the "good" part of the chain fits the gipsy properly, then the gipsy isn't all that worn. (We've never had to replace a gipsy due to wear, but have had to, due to difference in supposedly same size chain.) We actually saw a whole bunch of soi disant 10 mm gipsies, all different, at a windlass warehouse one time. Who would have imagined there could be so many differences in "10 mm" chain?

Since your chain is rusty, it may also have stretched due to wastage, and strong pulling.

Here's a link to another thread wherein sources of chain are mentioned: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...it-273306.html

Ann

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by BobFord

Chain skipping has been a problem in the past.( V6000 capstan ) I could see that as the galvo. worn off , the slipping started. Re-gal and it worked again , no slipping . Equally , new gypsy and all well again. Both exy . and every (2) years !! Solution was to drill , tap and inset a cheese head screw at each gypsy tooth. M5 screw. Now works a treat and every year or so , re-drill and insert a new " tooth". Simples !

This is an interesting idea. I had thought of trying to braze on a nub.
Can you explain a bit more about where the screw went?
You can not simply remove the old bolt and put in a new one?
A lot of different head styles, which did you use?


Sounds like you would run out of places to drill and tap in a few years.

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Hi, hpeer:

If the "good" part of the chain fits the gipsy properly, then the gipsy isn't all that worn. (We've never had to replace a gipsy due to wear, but have had to, due to difference in supposedly same size chain.) We actually saw a whole bunch of soi disant 10 mm gipsies, all different, at a windlass warehouse one time. Who would have imagined there could be so many differences in "10 mm" chain?

Since your chain is rusty, it may also have stretched due to wastage, and strong pulling.

Here's a link to another thread wherein sources of chain are mentioned: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...it-273306.html

Ann

Ann,
I quite agree. When I bought this gypsy they sent me the wrong wheel with the right markings. After a short go around we returned the first gypsy and got another that had no markings but worked well. Go figure.

BTW, I have kept the old BBB wheel, just incase. More ballast, I did get rid of the old prop this year. LOL.

As for supply we are in the Eastern Caribbean and likely my sources will be limited to the 2 big chandleries: Budget and Island Water World. Saint Martin.

[skipperpete]

I had a similar problem with larger chain and a worn gypsy and I decided to build up the gypsy. Initially I started with Esab bronze stick welding electrodes but the welds were pretty ugly and I was spending way too much time with the die grinder so moved to Tig with much better results. I used the electrodes and stripped off the flux but finally got some better brazing rods and it all worked out nicely.
I think brazing the gypsy with a welding torch would be very difficult.

[Liza Lee]

Your chain is old and rusty. It only takes a few thou to erode away on each link to make the chain slightly longer. Have you thought of end for ending it? Be care not to put rusty chain at the bottom of the locker. It may end up knitting. Or just replace the first 50ft

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by skipperpete

I had a similar problem with larger chain and a worn gypsy and I decided to build up the gypsy. Initially I started with Esab bronze stick welding electrodes but the welds were pretty ugly and I was spending way too much time with the die grinder so moved to Tig with much better results. I used the electrodes and stripped off the flux but finally got some better brazing rods and it all worked out nicely.
I think brazing the gypsy with a welding torch would be very difficult.

Good to know. I carry a little inverter stick welder and can get some rods. TIG is out of the question. I can tolerate ugly.

[hpeer]

OK, I have gone down a rabbit hole here. I am going to try to write this out so all can see. Maybe it will help someone else in the future.

BOTTOM LINE:
1-the stampings in the Lofrans gypsys are incorrect. But the chart seems to be correct.
2- there is significant variation in wire size within the (unstressed) chain.


We got the boat with 3/8” BBB chain. I wanted to go to a more reliably stronger grade. Somehow I ended up with buying, from Defender, 3/8” G4 ISO spec chain. That meant my existing gypsy would not work, so I bought a new gypsy. It is a Lofrans windlass and there are various “official” charts, but the one below makes selection simple.

Really there are only 2 different gypsies and a red herring
LWP815-5/16HT part# 367l Stamped 3/8 fits 5/16 HT (red herring)
LWP815-M10 part# 367b Stamped Ø 10 P30 3/8HT fits 3/8HT AND 5/16 &3/8 PC (what ever that is)
LWP815-3/8BBB part # 367c Stamped 3/8BBB Ø 10mm DIN766 fits 3/8 BBB



The differences are in the wire diameter and the “pitch”, the inside length of the hole in the chain.

Just talking 3/8” chain there are 3 “standard” dimensions. (Source is Titan catalog)
3/8 BBB 10.3 wire & 27.6mm pitch
3/8 766 G4 10mm wire & 30mm pitch
3/8 ISO G4 10mm wire & 31mm pitch

So if you can follow this mess you see there is something wrong with either the chart or the stampings. And I can say THE STAMPINGS LIE but the chart is correct.

Here is my understanding now.

Part 367l is NOT for any 3/8 chain.
Part 367b fits ALL G4 chain ISO and 766 spec. - 30 or 31 pitch
Part 267c fits ONLY 3/8” BBB 27.6 pitch.

I have 367b and 367c on board and was able to confirm most of this.

The picture below has both gypsies side by side. There is significant difference between them, their geometry.

367b pockets are sloping angles and extend to the rim of the gypsy.
367c pockets have steep sides, sharp corners, and leave a large rim. My ISO (31mm) chain lays nicely in the 367b pockets. The 30mm version should also fit, there is just a wee bit of wiggle room between the links when deeply set.
In the 367c it kind of fits for 2 or 3 pockets but as it wraps around the chain is just too long and it starts to work out.

Note the ISO chain is 31mm pitch and 766 spec chain has a 30mm pitch. The BBB chain is 27.6 pitch. So there is a big difference between BBB and either HT spec 2.4 or 3.4mm) but the HT specs are quite close, 1mm.

There is a further ambiguity in the note about “ISO etc only”. I take that to mean either ISO AND DIN 766. It is inconceivable they would not have a 766 compatible gypsy and the 367b pockets seem intentionally designed to fit a range of chains.

Next I measured my chain, I measured 5 consecutive links wire thickness and pitch. This was on a piece of chain that has seen very little use, galvanizing intact. Like new.
Here are averages and deviation.
Wire size 10.46 (10.35 to 10.55)
Pitch 31.14 (30.96 to 31.28)
Thickness measurements varied noticeably on any piece of wire, move a couple of mm and the wire gives a different reading. So just the wire thickness differential of 0.2mm would account for some of the difference in length differential.

In a day or two I will try to measure a rusted piece of wire and see if that shows any significant difference.

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by Liza Lee

Your chain is old and rusty. It only takes a few thou to erode away on each link to make the chain slightly longer. Have you thought of end for ending it? Be care not to put rusty chain at the bottom of the locker. It may end up knitting. Or just replace the first 50ft

The chain in the pic is actually quite good, almost never been wet, just rust stained. The worse part of the chain looks much worse. Will get around to measuring that same as I did this shortly, just not tonight.

Turning it end for end will not accomplish much. I frequently lay with close to 100 feet of 150 feet total. The middle section is the worse bit and will end up still being close to the middle.

There is no doubt I need new chain. After this conversation i see the question is how what specification chain? And also is my gypsy damaged? If my gypsy is good then I will stay with HT chain, if the gypsy has damage then I will likely switch to BBB and go back to ild gypsy which looks hardly used.

[Tin Tin]

Originally Posted by BobFord

Chain skipping has been a problem in the past.( V6000 capstan ) I could see that as the galvo. worn off , the slipping started. Re-gal and it worked again , no slipping . Equally , new gypsy and all well again. Both exy . and every (2) years !! Solution was to drill , tap and inset a cheese head screw at each gypsy tooth. M5 screw. Now works a treat and every year or so , re-drill and insert a new " tooth". Simples !

Seems like a good idea. I was planning on machining 0.5mm off the joining faces of the gypsy split so the teeth would be slightly closer together.

[hpeer]

For anyone still following I can definitely say the chain has stretched and that is causing the slipping. There appears to be no measurable wastage.

Wastage:
110' as new measure 10.46 (10.35-10.55)
70' well worn measure 10.53 (10.17-10.68)
This all looks to be within the normal variation of the product. The chain is not wasted.

Deformation:
110': 31.14 (30.96-31.28)
75': 34.38 (34.21-34.71)

BBB nominal pitch is 27.6.
My gypsy is for 30 & 31mm chain.
27.6 chain will not work in a 30mm gypsy. That is a 9% pitch difference.

The difference between 31 and 34.38 is 11% longer pitch. So it makes sense the chain is jumping.

Looking closely at the chain I can see it has narrowed right in the contact spot between links.

So maybe this is not so much the chain stretching as the chain wearing at the contact spots. Never matter the cause, the effect is the same.

Since 2017 we have anchored very approximately 1,000 days. That is a lot of of dragging chain troughbsand and coral and rock. That is gonna work out to about a buck a day for chain.

I think the gypsy is still good.

Now, how to buy chain in Dominica?

[JPA Cate]

Hi, hpeer,

The PC stands for "proof coil."

Good luck on getting your chain soon.

Ann

[Stewie12]

I would end fo end the chain and see what happens . It costs nothing.

[Ron Bailey]

Is your chain calibrated to your windlass? Ron

[SV_FlyingTigress]

Need to verify this with your replacement chain size:

From: https://www.lofrans.com/product/80-gypsies/5103-gypsy

631124 3/8'' G4O FALKON / TITAN-Horizontal Windlass
636570 10mmISO-3/8 HT Falkon/Titan/PRJ2000/X4/SX3.5

Trey calling Binnacle, they have been good for me for Lofrans Gypsy's
Tel: 902-475-3602 (902-423-6464 - Halifax)

[lo2jones]

8 years of active duty is a long time. For sure the chain can be worn enough…Rusty chain is very likely a contributing factor.