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Old 28-03-2013, 17:08   #16
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Re: Best Windlass location?

On Banyandah we carry 70m of 10mm chain in a locker that self-drains, its bitter end attached to 120m of sliver rope coiled on a shelf extending nearly hafway across the locker, a high fiddle keeps it in place. There's a 20kg anchor on the bow unless crossing somewhere like the Southern Ocean when I put it in the locker.

A high percentage of sailing life is island hopping and crossing reasonable seas, so fit a system that works well. To me that would be centerline with little distance to the roller so the anchor falls easily. Or as in our situation, the winch reverses and lowers the anchor, which can also be done from the cockpit. Simple, always works. Easy to keep clean.

Our anchor winch is mounted just aft of the crash bulkhead, the motor under the deck, inside. And we direct our chain down a large poly pipe that falls at 45 degrees through the crash bulkhead into the chain locker. All pipes sealed so no water ingress. Where the chain falls into the locker, a section of large poly pipe has been fastened horizontally under the chain to act as a wear strip and lets the chain drop beautifully in a neat pile. A hatch above lifts up to watch it happen.
Question? Why such a large tinny? Wouldn't 10' suffice?
Hope that helps.
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Old 28-03-2013, 18:01   #17
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Re: Best Windlass location?

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Originally Posted by banyandah View Post
On Banyandah

A high percentage of sailing life is island hopping and crossing reasonable seas, so fit a system that works well. To me that would be centerline with little distance to the roller so the anchor falls easily. Or as in our situation, the winch reverses and lowers the anchor, which can also be done from the cockpit. Simple, always works. Easy to keep clean.
.
Question? Why such a large tinny? Wouldn't 10' suffice?
Hope that helps.
Thanks Jack, I am enjoying your books. Makes sense for your boat, the Hartly has that nice beefy flared bow, My guess is she would hardly feel the weight. thinking on it forward has got be near optimum for coastal. Aft may be for offshore.

On the dinghy thing.. Well I don't like outboards and I love rowing. even a ten foot rowing dinghy is a pitiful thing if it has any weight in it.

My friend has a 16 foot bolger light dory, An absolute dream to row. I can only fit 12 foot so I will go somewhat wider than the dory, but still narrower at the waterline than most dinghy's. with the length she will still have more load carrying than most 8-9 foot dinghy's. I cant be bothered with two part dinghy's If I don't need to.

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Windlass aft:


Guide the chain and secure the stowed anchor:
Great photo's, thanks, this is almost exactly what I had in mind. What is the chain locker like? I am guessing it is a nice tall one that reaches the deck. The Dashews sure design nice boats.

Do you have any issues with the anchor not self launching (with a 178lb anchor, probably not!).

Quote:
Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy View Post
Yes, the fair lead trumps the weight too, although my steel boat's bluff bows provide sufficient buoyancy forward to compensate.

..Logically, you would want the windlass right in front of the mast, with no centerline hatches, and that centerline covered in either a stainless strip or even an inset "gutter". The chain or rope rode would go down a hawsepipe forward of the mast into a bilge or keel locker very close to the CE of the boat. Frequently this is the aft corner of a cabin or is part of bulkhead involving the head, so the chain pipe (which would be removable for cleaning) could be buried inside that, which could actually strengthen the deck...

..Lastly, the wire runs to the windlass are shorter and unburied: easier to service and shorter, cheaper wire runs...

But I think the logic is sound in terms of the weight. Maybe some lone wolf of the sea will make a project of it.
Alas my forward hatch is on the centerline, but I could go further aft to the mast. It would make a tall narrow chain locker easier to install (less in the way)I would have to run the chain under the dinghy but that is not a huge drama.

Another Idea for the lone wolf would be a powered reel winch in the bowels of the boat. You could have 100's of meters of wire, then chain. All the electronics would be dry, and it could pull the rode through plastic pipework under the floorboards and accomodation, and have a big drip tray under it all.

I was looking at it all yesterday, I think it makes sense to mount the hand winch forward for now. But allow for a possible mounting like Jedi's when I eventually fit an electric windlass.

Still need to find out how my old racer will like 60 meters of chain in the nose!

Thanks for all the input, lots of great tips.. and yes I probably am overthinking the issue, but that's typical of me...

if anyone else has gone from a light chain rope combo on there cruiser racer and fitted all chain I would be keen to hear how she handled it.
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Old 28-03-2013, 18:02   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy

It has occurred to me that nobody in my experience does the right thing in terms of the physics of ground tackle. Logically, you would want the windlass right in front of the mast, with no centerline hatches, and that centerline covered in either a stainless strip or even an inset "gutter". The chain or rope rode would go down a hawsepipe forward of the mast into a bilge or keel locker very close to the CE of the boat. Frequently this is the aft corner of a cabin or is part of bulkhead involving the head, so the chain pipe (which would be removable for cleaning) could be buried inside that, which could actually strengthen the deck.

If the windlass dies, you've got beefy winches on the mast right to hand. If you choose not to install a chain washdown on deck, you could have the chain flake down in the bilges over a perforated plate, under which is a low-profile bilge pump. So you can "wash without slosh", and then pump the bilge-based anchor rode locker a lot drier than something forward.

You can examine the chain for defects or service either inside the cabin, or on the deck in a more stable and sheltered location than the actual bow.

Lastly, the wire runs to the windlass are shorter and unburied: easier to service and shorter, cheaper wire runs.

Getting the chain over the keel, like getting the batteries under the settees, makes sense. I can only assume that habit and an aversion to bringing the potentially mucky "machinery" into the condo-like interior of most modern cruisers (plus their limited bilge stowage of many) means this idea is a non-starter.

But I think the logic is sound in terms of the weight. Maybe some lone wolf of the sea will make a project of it.
Yes, our setup is pretty much what you describe. As is the majority of anchor setups on cats. The only difference is that we have twin bow rollers and that each one is about 200 mm off the centerline. The main anchor comes up immediately in front of the bridge deck, which is about 2 m in front of the mast. The other anchor comes up over the forward beam. Chain is stored directly in front of the mast.

Monos could do the same but the issue is the rode across the deck. We step over it and laugh at visitors who trip over it, especially when they are carrying a drink.
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Old 28-03-2013, 18:39   #19
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Re: Best Windlass location?

"My friend has a 16 foot bolger light dory, An absolute dream to row. I can only fit 12 foot so I will go somewhat wider than the dory, but still narrower at the waterline than most dinghy's. with the length she will still have more load carrying than most 8-9 foot dinghy's. I cant be bothered with two part dinghy's If I don't need to."

Yes, forget two piece dinghy. We very rarely use an outboard too. Much better to row and stay fit. Plus its quiet. Our sons had a 8' pram that skimmed atop the water, very easy to row. Its shape lifted fore and aft and had a wide beam so it planned. Couldn't take much cargo. Our 10' tinny is a compromise. Rows fine, but not the fastest, can be punished, takes a huge load. We have a double kayak for touring/fishing. Super sweet she is. Folds up for passages. Which is something I must do, pack it away. We're off tomorrow, heading north cross the Strait and up to the north coast.
Glad you're enjoying our books, Writing another - ever hear of the Nam Sang?
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Old 28-03-2013, 19:25   #20
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Re: Best Windlass location?

In the case of a hand operated windlass, I think you're right: it really needs to be well forrard where you can see the anchor, whereas a powered windlass can be well aft, as long as the control is forward

(Scarcely Relevant Waffle Warning

In some ways, the simplest and lightest manual idea, offering the best sightlines, would be to make the bow roller a chainwheel.

You'd have a ratchet pawl from the bow fitting to the wheel, another on a long upstanding lever driving the wheel (and possibly a backup pawl which could be dropped directly on the chain)
In my experience, heavy gravity pawls are better than light springloaded ones.

To eliminate the need for gear reduction, a lever extension could socket on, so you could crank standing on the middle or top rail of the pulpit, if need be. A long up-standing handle is a very efficient way to crank, and the efficiency is high because there's no gearbox needed ... admittedly it's even better if it can be doubleacting but that gets a bit more complicated.

But of course the pulpit would have to be divided for the lever arc to be unimpeded...
And there'd need to be some sort of friction brake for dropping the tackle, unless you chose to build a chain compressor aft of the roller (but that's hard on chain if you use it for controlling the drop. I guess it could be lined with UHMW PE).


(The following is also likely to interest hardly anyone, being also highly unconventional and all ... but ... I'm planning almost the exact opposite: I'm going to have a very strong mast-lowering tabernacle, extending high enough to take the gooseneck loads, IOW the boom pivots off the tabernacle, not the mast. So the bottom panel fo the mast is "built-in" as it would be if keel stepped, except it's deck-stepped and the "deck collar", in terms of calculating the bending loads, is at gooseneck height.

I'm seriously thinking of mounting a low-profile planetary-geared hydraulic wheelmotor with a direct-mounted chainwheel at the top of the tabernacle.
If I did this, I'd run the chain to the bowroller direct, over the top of the dinghy and the arc of the forward hatch when opening. Self launching shouldn't be too difficult but a fallback position would be some sort of springloaded pusher - perhaps a torsion-bar or Dura-Torque style...

Set up tight, the chain would make a great centreline handrail... but I freely acknowledge this layout wouldn't work for most.

It would have the advantage of reducing the extra load involved in wrapping the chain over the bow roller, and it would increase the effectiveness of the chainwheel by the extra wrap angle as the chain rises steadily towards the wheel. Possibly a separate snubber would not be needed, if a cross-line relief valve was fitted to enable the chainwheel to rotate far enough to absorb occasional jerks.

To take the severe forward moment, the foot of the tabernacle needs to run forward to pick up the ring-frame ahead of the mast, which is primarily to take the forrard chainplate loads.

(I'm planning on having a small self-draining chain well at the bow to take the last 10m of chain when inshore, so the chain doesn't have to be scrupulously cleaned every time you pull it up. That implies some sort of rudimentary chainwheel for the bowroller to get that last big of chain, and the anchor back up, in muddy bottoms... full circle back to the first idea. Also a backup if the hydraulic supply, or motor, failed)
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Old 28-03-2013, 19:50   #21
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Re: Best Windlass location?

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Originally Posted by Snowpetrel View Post
Great photo's, thanks, this is almost exactly what I had in mind. What is the chain locker like? I am guessing it is a nice tall one that reaches the deck. The Dashews sure design nice boats.

Do you have any issues with the anchor not self launching (with a 178lb anchor, probably not!).
The chain locker is as you expect: tall and narrow. There never is an issue with chain not feeding.

The Bruce is not self launching. Our procedure for anchoring is to pull about 2' of chain out the locker with the windlass, and then I kick it over the roller which still keeps it on the roller like in a 45 degree position from which it will self launch. Then, when we are within yards of where we want to anchor, I give a bit more "electric down" until the anchor if free from the roller after which at the right moment the windlass clutch gets released and it crashes down
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Old 28-03-2013, 20:00   #22
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Re: Best Windlass location?

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Clearly, I should have read farther into the thread...that's basically the idea I listed above.
+1 !

Signed "Lone wolf of the sea..."
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