Anchors, Guns and Strippers!!!!

[noelex 77]

Yes, the Spade uses lead ballast. Both the Spade and Excel depend on large ballast chamber as the primary means of achieving the correct setting orientation. (Unlike, for example, the roll bar anchors where the roll bar provides this function).

The much denser (especially in seawater) lead ballast in the Spade is one of the reasons it has, in my view, a distinct performance advantage, but as you have indicated it is a hassle if the anchor needs re-galvanising.

I am very much in favour of your approach of oversizing the anchor, but the anchor still has to set to achieve significant holding power. Compromising the anchor design and oversizing the anchor to compensate can sometimes work satisfactorily, but choosing the best general purpose anchor is a much better starting point.

Originally Posted by Scubaseas

The Excel will fit better as the shank is shorter than the Spade.

The fit of the anchor on the bow roller is important and unfortunately the Rocna and especially the Mantus will not fit all boats. However, the steel Spade does not have a long shank and I am surprised that it there is any practical difference. The overall length of the 55kg Spade is listed as 1155mm which is a little shorter than the 55kg Excel at 1280mm. This does not directly give the shank length from the bow roller and unfortunately the manufacturers quote different refrence points which makes a direct comparison difficult, but I would check the fit more closely on your bow roller with a cardboard template.

[Scubaseas]

The overall length of the 55kg Spade is listed as 1155mm which is a little shorter than the 55kg Excel at 1280mm.

Noted but I am looking at the 40kg Excel "A" dimension of 750 versus the Spade S160 "C" dimension of 860. On my boat this dimension in excess of 810 may have the shackle/shank hit the jib furler. Anything above 810 also starts to interfere with the anchor locker hatch.

Both the 40kg/88# Excel # 8 and the Spade S160 60# are two sizes up from their respective "recommended" sizes for my boat. The S140 Spade would fit but then it's only one size up.

55kg/120# maybe a bit over kill even for me.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Scubaseas

Noted but I am looking at the 40kg Excel "A" dimension of 750 versus the Spade S160 "C" dimension of 860.

I don’t think you are comparing the same dimensions.

The first diagram shows the Spade “C” dimension:

The second diagram shows the Excel “A” dimension:

You can see they are not measuring the same thing. For identical anchors the “C” dimension will be greater than the “A” dimension.

The overall length is not the dimension you really need, but this is at least listed in the same way by both anchor manufacturers, so can be directly compared. This is 1080mm for the Spade S160 and 1140mm for the Excel number 8.

I have looked very closely at the design of the Excel and Spade anchors, and while I have never put identical sized anchors side by side I would be surprised if the Excel is any shorter, especially significantly shorter in the dimension you are concerned about.

Rather than speculating I would make a couple of cardboard templates and compare the anchors on your bow roller.

[Scubaseas]

I don’t think you are comparing the same dimensions.

The first diagram shows the Spade “C” dimension:

The second diagram shows the Excel “A” dimension:

I am using the respective measurements as a starting point to draw a radius arm from the bow roller outer edge. I agree that on identical anchors A and C would be different unless the anchors were indeed identical. But then C would be longer due to measuring what appears to be the center of the slot. Nor would I argue with you about the density of lead changing in seawater. I grant you most times the anchor won't come up straight line arc but it could if the deck was bucking up and down three or four feet. But consider the important dimensions for my particular application is defined by where my furler is and where the hatch is in relation to the bow roller. Which is why "A" and "C" are relevant numbers. They are the distance from (approximate) contact point with the roller to the end of the shank.

Yes I have cut out both anchors on a sign board to check. Ideally you would make a three dimensional model to check as the flukes may bottom out on the anchor roller assembly frame. Will a Spade S160 fit my boat using just the vertical cut out? Not quite if there is a shackle on it. If I move the roller forward it might. Or I could weld or bolt on tabs to hold the flukes. Or I could just buy an anchor that fits as is.

The only objections I have to the Spade are rust and re-galvanizing. From what I have been able to read and observe the Excel is a widely popular (at least in Oz and NZ), well built, strong and well galvanized anchor. I may well be wrong.

With all due respect, if you want to send me a Spade S160 I would be happy to use it.

[michaeld]

We have the sister ship of Kretchmer's Quetzal with a 33Kg Rocna. I don't care if anyone thinks it's too big. Afterall, ground tackle is like brakes on a car.

[Scubaseas]

We have the sister ship of Kretchmer's Quetzal with a 33Kg Rocna. I don't care if anyone thinks it's too big. Afterall, ground tackle is like brakes on a car.

At'sa tighta fit. Pivoting anchor roller?

[Woodland Hills]

Is the Rocna Vulcan not a possibility, or does it have to have a roll bar? We have one and it has worked well: always resetting after tide changes and digging in as soon as it is dropped.

[geoff3nebel]

It’s difficult to advise others on ground tackle and how to use it,
I have a 41’6” Westerly Oceanlord and have securely anchored with its 20kg Delta and 60 metres of 10mm chain when caught out in steady 30kn+ gusting 43kn without shifting.
The anchor’s purpose is to hook/bury in the seabed and it and more importantly, the weight of the chain keeps you where you want to be.
Bear in mind that you may have to weigh anchor manually when the windlass fails.
Decide the weight you can safely manage then go for it.

[Scubaseas]

Is the Rocna Vulcan not a possibility, or does it have to have a roll bar? We have one and it has worked well: always resetting after tide changes and digging in as soon as it is dropped.

Prefer non roll bar for various reasons. Even though I have a Rocna Original my old boat. Don't know anything about a Vulcan but might look into it. Looks very....powerboatish? Not much to lash down in a seaway?

[Mike OReilly]

Not to take this too far off topic, but the Sarca Excel anchor looks a lot like the old Delta. I hope/assume there are significant differences.

I've never been a fan of the Deltas. My understanding is their ultimate holding power is significantly less than comparable 'new-gen' anchors like Rocna, Mantus, Spade, etc. Based on reviews and analysis, and my own limited use of them, I would not want one.

Is the Excel better?

[MJH]

Originally Posted by Scubaseas

OK now that I have your attention maybe just anchors... Here's my dilemma. "They that know" or at least the ones I respect their experience and opinions espouse using an anchor as a primary bower that is one if not two sizes up from what the manufacturer recommends. They would be Harries, Kretschmer, Vigor, and others. I forget who said it but put consecutively bigger anchors on until people on the dock walk by and laugh how big the anchor is and you then have the right size. I have a ridiculously heavy boat with a butt ugly dinghy davit/arch/solar panel farm support/helicopter pad plus an extra tall full enclosure on a center cockpit of a Tayana V42 CC. So lots of windage. Hell the sail cover on the main alone has over 50ft.sq/ of canvas exposed. The boat is 33000lbs unloaded. Add all the crap for cruising and maybe come in around 40K lbs. Depends on how much beer we load on. SO. Other than the extra weight of 23 lbs is there any reason to not use an oversize anchor? The windlass can handle it, there is plenty of room for it on the roller and in the locker. Even the longer shank to furler clearance works out OK. I prefer my best bower to also be my storm anchor. I will have a large fortress with 10' chain and 400' 3/4" Brait as a kedge or as a soft mud secondary anchor.

My current dilemma and purpose of post is to gather the hive wisdom of not using a #6 Sarca Excel (65#/30KG) which is the recommendation of the dealer but to use a two size up and go with the #8 Sarca Excel (88#/40KG) which my gut is telling me is fine.

Any response welcome. Flames, shames and anything else also welcome. I have no problem with people laughing at my boat or me for that matter. I do like dropping, laying out chain properly, slowly digging in and then checking the set of the anchor. Then pretty much not have to worry about it and get a decent sleep without the anchor alarm coming on.

Thanks in advance for any comments

Al

I have a Tayana 42ac and have used a galvanized Lewmar Delta 44 for the last 11.5 years without a problem here in Puget Sound, BC, Hawaii, and Alaska. My secondary anchor is a Bruce 33# that came with the boat and I've used maybe once.

I assume you also have a horizontal windlass in the anchor well. My recommendation is to measure the distance from your bow roller to the anchor well doors to make sure the shank of the anchor you buy fits properly in front of the doors...too long and it will be a problem opening them with the anchor snug in place.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

[Scubaseas]

Not to take this too far off topic, but the Sarca Excel anchor looks a lot like the old Delta. I hope/assume there are significant differences.

I thought so also and have owned/used Deltas. Still use Deltas at the dive shop for all our boats. But I agree not a huge fan of them for cruising.


The Excel seems to have several differences, like a drop snout, sharpen-able tip heavier tip weight and different "wings"? No idea but it seems well liked.



http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ls-175718.html

[Scubaseas]

I assume you also have a horizontal windlass in the anchor well. My recommendation is to measure the distance from your bow roller to the anchor well doors to make sure the shank of the anchor you buy fits properly in front of the doors...too long and it will be a problem opening them with the anchor snug in place.

Indeed, That would be 810mm shank tip to roller contact on my boat which allows for a shackle or two. Have the Lighthouse 1501. Appreciate the input. Thanks.

[SV__Grace]

We are full time cruisers in PNW in a 20 ton/40K lb Nauticat 43 with as much windage, if not more, than your Tayana! Our primary bower is a 33KG (73 lb) Rocna Vulcan, which is the recommended size for our boat. I usually go a size or two higher in my anchor purchases, but after using Rocna on several different previous boats I finally started believing Peter Smith's insistence that their recommended sizes for these anchors are well tested and already conservative. We've experienced many gales at anchor in our current boat with our Vulcan, the biggest one to date topping 60 knots, and once our anchor is well set, we have never dragged, and never moved an inch (we put a waypoint at our drop and waypoints where the boat sits and have our chartplotter on at all times at anchor). Here's some of what I learned-

- The anchor needs to be heavy enough to dig into the bottom, which can be a challenge for smaller boats with lighter anchors, but no problem for most cruising boats with appropriately sized anchors.

- The anchor needs enough fluke area to hold onto the bottom with the force created by the size/weight of the boat. This is why I prefer scoop style anchors over plows. (in a storm a few days ago the only boat near us that dragged had a CQR)

- For cruisers, chain rode rules! The weight alone makes a big difference and helps the anchor set, dig in, and keep you in place. In muddy bottoms my chain gets embedded and becomes a new anchor point, and in a recent blow it took 35 knots of wind to dislodge the embedded chain and extend its full length.

- With chain rode a strong but stretchy snubber is key. Most boaters use a snubber that is much too short. We used a bridle snubber for a long time until we started experimenting with using our waterline bobstay connection for the snubber and like it a lot, allowing for much less scope in the deep anchorages we encounter. For a boat our size a 60 foot snubber with the bitter end at the mid or stern cleat (with fair leads) gives you a lot more length for stretching than a shorter snubber secured at the bow.

- Scope is everything. Many boaters don't pay attention to scope or figure it wrong (I was one of them!). The formula must include the attachment point on the boat above the water, which is 5 feet for us, so 20 feet of water with 5 feet added is 25 feet, and the minimum 5:1 scope needed for most of us would be 5X25=125 feet. More is better for me to be able to sleep at night, so I prefer 7:1 in "normal" conditions and 10:1 in a gale.

- Hobby horsing and sailing back and forth at anchor can dislodge a well set anchor and there are a number of strategies for minimizing this. My high windage boat sails around crazily at anchor so being a ketch I put out the mizzen about halfway, which works pretty well. Riding sails, rocker stoppers, and using a second anchor in a hammerlock moor (or just letting out enough rode to let it drag on the bottom) can work as well.

As important a decision as which anchor and how big, is the rest of your anchor set up and your anchoring technique.

[Woodland Hills]

Originally Posted by Scubaseas

Prefer non roll bar for various reasons. Even though I have a Rocna Original my old boat. Don't know anything about a Vulcan but might look into it. Looks very....powerboatish? Not much to lash down in a seaway?

Not sure what looks have to do with it. If it fits your boat and works, what else is there?