Anchors - Bigger is Better ?

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by congo

over twenty years we have not had problems with our anchor sizing, either extremely lucky or running with the experience of the marine authorities professional engineers has kept us in good stead.

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

I'm wondering what your thoughts on the topic are, given that your recommendation for my friend, who's Excel anchor dragged a couple of times, was to go to a 30kg, instead of the 22kg he had.

I presume the boat in question was 45 feet, or 13.7m. 6.5T.

[SV THIRD DAY]

It just seems common sense doesn't it?
The "book" (what every that means) called for a 80lb anchor for our boat...so we did the logial thing and bought a 100lbs anchor. 4 yrs of cruising living on anchor full time and we have never dragged or had problems in setting our anchor.

The wind blows and we watch the chaos in the anchorage around us..people dragging..panicking and wishing they had gotten the larger size anchor.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

I presume the boat in question was 45 feet, or 13.7m. 6.5T.

Yes. From the table, if anything you'd think the size 5 was bigger than necessary.

[JonJo]

The boat in question is 37' - it clearly says so in the relevant post.

J

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by JonJo

The boat in question is 37' - it clearly says so in the relevant post.

J

The boat that we are concerned with is 45 feet 6.5T.

The owner apparently felt the 22 kg Excel was inadequate ( following a couple of drags) despite the Anchor Right table suggesting that this boat is in he middle of range for a 22kg excel.

In general I suggest people oversize their anchors over manufacturers recommendations, (and Anchor Right's recommendations are no worse than most) so these results are no surprise. I expect many anchors would have similar problems.

It disappointing, and misleading, when anchor designers promote on Cruising Forum that they have "never had problems with our anchor sizing, in twenty years" despite direct evidence from our members to the contrary.

Let's see some realistic estimations on anchor size from manufacturers. We won't think your anchor is worse for recommending a larger size. On the contrary most cruising sailors will applaud the honesty.

[Shas Cho]

Originally Posted by Stumble

They aren't government entities...
...insurance companies whose agenda is pretty much to reduce the number and size of claims.
The only person in the world that cares half as much abut your boats well being in your insurance company.

Again-
not 'government' but 'governmental'.
An adjective, not a noun.

You missed a word in describing
the agenda of insurance companies-
Their agenda is to reduce
the number and size of claims PAID.
They don't mind claims *per se* at all.

When I have to insure my boat
I'll take up model-boat sailing in my bath tub.

[sabray]

I would like to add that I now have no idea.
I have this hoop anchor that is mid range for my boat. It's frigging heavy and add all that oversized chain it's all more then I want. Seems to bight into everything I throw at it. The Bruce is in the aft locker tied down. It also held well but not as hard as the hoop thing. Then I have a fx 37 on the rail. Very nice for rowing out before a blow or when I think that hoop isn't enough.
I think my big main is good for anchoring. Having other stuff is good too. I once was a killet fan now it's too complicated. Used only for very short term storm use. Not as a weight but a staple.
The Luke is in my yard waiting for my trip to Maine.

[JonJo]

The way to save weight is go for higher strength but lighter chain - but you know that anyway.

Its nice to find someone else to admit they are ready to deploy a second anchor and have it ready.

Jonathan

[sabray]

I know but bigger is better so I got g4 3/8better yet I splurged and bought the right crosby schackle. Then the best anchor alarm system. Dyneema in my mooring and anchor system.
All this so I make sure I don't go anywhere.
Then there is the mortgage the credit card insurance. Also very good anchors.

[congo]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonJo
The boat in question is 37' - it clearly says so in the relevant post.

J

Noelex Wrote:

The boat that we are concerned with is 45 feet 6.5T.

The owner apparently felt the 22 kg Excel was inadequate ( following a couple of drags) despite the Anchor Right table suggesting that this boat is in he middle of range for a 22kg excel.

In general I suggest people oversize their anchors over manufacturers recommendations, (and Anchor Right's recommendations are no worse than most) so these results are no surprise. I expect many anchors would have similar problems.

It disappointing, and misleading, when anchor designers promote on Cruising Forum that they have "never had problems with our anchor sizing, in twenty years" despite direct evidence from our members to the contrary.

Let's see some realistic estimations on anchor size from manufacturers. We won't think your anchor is worse for recommending a larger size. On the contrary most cruising sailors will applaud the honesty.


(Well now we are misleading -dishonest)? Brian Rang me and discussed the No 5 Excel primarily because Cruisingcat had previous made comment on the locked Excel thread, a mate of his had dragged an Excel. I then suggested that Cuisingcat get his mate to contact me, Brian then rang and said it wasn’t that he wasn’t happy with his anchor but in the last storm his boat was ripped from the mooring and it was badly smashed up, he had purchased the boat from the insurance company and was rebuilding it, I asked him to send the anchor back and I would refund him, he then said it wasn’t that he was not happy with the Number five Excel.


It was his decision to go for a No 6 Excel with this rebuild and I encouraged his suggestion as his boat is a cat, I stand by what I say, we have never had problems with our anchor selecting chart in general, sure there are exceptions, in this instance Brian said he had only dragged twice, once due to his shackle.


The other time the anchor was not buried which suggest to me something may have been wedged between the fluke and the shank, we will never know, regardless of not purchasing it from us, never asked Brian to produce a reseat confirming he was the original purchaser, never ask him how long he had owned the No 5 for, I took his word, I fully refunded him, Brian then paid the difference for a No 6.
If Brian had of bean dealing with me direct I would have suggested a No 6 simply based on his boat specks, mono with keel, multihull, boats with a fly bridge there are a number of aspects as to specking an anchor size.


As for 44 Cruisingcats query I am at a loss, as explained the various styles, types of boats require detail for anchor specking, this we learnt from the survey officers, I am not going to go into that on this forum, I pm Crusingcat to send me his phone number and I would go into detail, rather than ring me you have hung out your laundry on his forum for what reason I have no Idea?

As for Noelex it may be disappointing for you as you have reached a decision- opinion of Anchor Right and me personly and that is fine, our arguments are backed up by fact, reputation and longetivity, yours are backed up by diving?
We cannot go into all of the variables on our sizing chart without confusing all, and at the end of the day we turn to survey officers for basic bottom line specks.


In saying all of that there are Cats out there weighing 13 ton over 40 feet that have never dragged their No five Excel, but I still lean toward a number six on this size cat, I also know of cats the same size running number 7 Excels, that is their choice.

The boat under survey was not specked on weight and length only, it was specked on application of type C survey requirements for charter boats. When I said this is what we would have specked it was simply due to the knowledge we have of survey requirements, should have made that point sorry.


Regards Rex.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by congo

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonJo
The boat in question is 37' - it clearly says so in the relevant post.

J

Noelex Wrote:

The boat that we are concerned with is 45 feet 6.5T.

The owner apparently felt the 22 kg Excel was inadequate ( following a couple of drags) despite the Anchor Right table suggesting that this boat is in he middle of range for a 22kg excel.

In general I suggest people oversize their anchors over manufacturers recommendations, (and Anchor Right's recommendations are no worse than most) so these results are no surprise. I expect many anchors would have similar problems.

It disappointing, and misleading, when anchor designers promote on Cruising Forum that they have "never had problems with our anchor sizing, in twenty years" despite direct evidence from our members to the contrary.

Let's see some realistic estimations on anchor size from manufacturers. We won't think your anchor is worse for recommending a larger size. On the contrary most cruising sailors will applaud the honesty.


(Well now we are misleading -dishonest)? Brian Rang me and discussed the No 5 Excel primarily because Cruisingcat had previous made comment on the locked Excel thread, a mate of his had dragged an Excel. I then suggested that Cuisingcat get his mate to contact me, Brian then rang and said it wasn’t that he wasn’t happy with his anchor but in the last storm his boat was ripped from the mooring and it was badly smashed up, he had purchased the boat from the insurance company and was rebuilding it, I asked him to send the anchor back and I would refund him, he then said it wasn’t that he was not happy with the Number five Excel.


It was his decision to go for a No 6 Excel with this rebuild and I encouraged his suggestion as his boat is a cat, I stand by what I say, we have never had problems with our anchor selecting chart in general, sure there are exceptions, in this instance Brian said he had only dragged twice, once due to his shackle.


The other time the anchor was not buried which suggest to me something may have been wedged between the fluke and the shank, we will never know, regardless of not purchasing it from us, never asked Brian to produce a reseat confirming he was the original purchaser, never ask him how long he had owned the No 5 for, I took his word, I fully refunded him, Brian then paid the difference for a No 6.
If Brian had of bean dealing with me direct I would have suggested a No 6 simply based on his boat specks, mono with keel, multihull, boats with a fly bridge there are a number of aspects as to specking an anchor size.


As for 44 Cruisingcats query I am at a loss, as explained the various styles, types of boats require detail for anchor specking, this we learnt from the survey officers, I am not going to go into that on this forum, I pm Crusingcat to send me his phone number and I would go into detail, rather than ring me you have hung out your laundry on his forum for what reason I have no Idea?



Regards Rex.

You say there are differences between anchor specs for Mono's and Cats. Fair enough, why do you not want to discuss them in the forum?

Oh and since you're talking about misleading... you should know that I'm helping Bryan rebuild his boat, so see him almost very day. There's no point misrepresenting what he said - I can easily check.

Bryan NEVER agreed there was any issue with his shackle. He told you had a correctly sized bow shackle fitted exactly as you said it should be. (I was actually present for that conversation)

He also said he told you that he had dug his anchor back out at low tide, and had found no evidence of foreign objects fouling it. It had been buried to the extent that just a bit of the shank was showing. That was the time when he had dragged his 22kg Excel, while about 20 metres away we sat to our 20kg Bruce, and didn't move. So I was present for this event also.

He's very happy that you were willing to exchange his anchor, and you're right, he wasn't unhappy with it in the first place. It was you who contacted me when I reported the simple fact - his anchor had dragged when he was anchored right next to us in Wathumba creek, while mine didn't. It was YOU who suggested you'd like to inspect the anchor for faults.

IMO and I'm sure Bryan would agree, you've been more than fair. I was just trying to get some clarification about anchor sizing for cats.

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

IMO and I'm sure Bryan would agree, you've been more than fair. I was just trying to get some clarification about anchor sizing for cats.

How about going up on size larger than you would if you had a monohull with half the windage of a multihull? Might be prudent.

[44'cruisingcat]

Could be, maybe there needs to be different tables for cats? The boat we're discussing was well within the length range, and actually LIGHTER than the lower end of the weight range for the anchor it had. It's arguable that the anchor fitted was already one size bigger than specified. In weight terms anyway.

[congo]

Cruising cat wrote:

say there are differences between anchor specs for Mono's and Cats. Fair enough, why do you not want to discuss them in the forum?

Oh and since you're talking about misleading... you should know that I'm helping Bryan rebuild his boat, so see him almost very day. There's no point misrepresenting what he said - I can easily check.

Bryan NEVER agreed there was any issue with his shackle. He told you had a correctly sized bow shackle fitted exactly as you said it should be. (I was actually present for that conversation)

He also said he told you that he had dug his anchor back out at low tide, and had found no evidence of foreign objects fouling it. It had been buried to the extent that just a bit of the shank was showing. That was the time when he had dragged his 22kg Excel, while about 20 metres away we sat to our 20kg Bruce, and didn't move. So I was present for this event also.

He's very happy that you were willing to exchange his anchor, and you're right, he wasn't unhappy with it in the first place. It was you who contacted me when I reported the simple fact - his anchor had dragged when he was anchored right next to us in Wathumba creek, while mine didn't. It was YOU who suggested you'd like to inspect the anchor for faults.

IMO and I'm sure Bryan would agree, you've been more than fair. I was just trying to get some clarification about anchor sizing for cats.


Rex wrote:

Cruisingcat.

I meant no offence.

I am not being misleading _ miss representing what was said when you were present was absolutely correct. I was speaking to Brian on the phone a week or so ago and that is what he told me then, if he believes he didn’t well that’s up to him.

I have done the right thing by you guys and I am pleased for Brian you are helping him, discussing the variations of weight verses windbag multihull and the like from past experiences sparks much debate. My assumptions on this matter are based on past experience over twenty years supplying to the industry( received feed back) and dealing with survey requirements and how they justify them.

I am certainly not going to stick my neck out on this forum, a good one for all of the experts to discuss on another thread, like I said if you email your number I will talk all day on the matter if needs be

Regards Rex.

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Could be, maybe there needs to be different tables for cats? The boat we're discussing was well within the length range, and actually LIGHTER than the lower end of the weight range for the anchor it had. It's arguable that the anchor fitted was already one size bigger than specified. In weight terms anyway.

Displacement matters when the vessel is moving in terms of the force required to stop it. Length, which is a surrogate for windage, matters when the vessel is exerting a pull on the rode during a blow. Both matter when the vessel is pitching around at anchor, although IMO, windage generally dominates with an anchored vessel. Add windage, as is the case with a multihull, and yes, the prudent mariner will take that into account in anchor selection. There may be others, but Ultra is the only one I know of with a selection chart that differentiates between hull types, and using their calculator, your friend needed one size up. Which he did.