Anchors - Bigger is Better ?

[Cotemar]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I don't know if I can take it much longer:

So what is the perfect anchor and size? Surely after all this there is a real answer that doesn't use the word depends.

The perfect anchor is one that works for your boat.

I Would recommend a new generation anchor that is either flat or concave as the convex ones have a problem bend that lets the horses run a bit.

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I don't know if I can take it much longer:

So what is the perfect anchor and size? Surely after all this there is a real answer that doesn't use the word depends.

It is totally unrealistic to think there is one perfect anchor - which is why the idea of one monster anchor is a panacea is plain daft. Putting all your eggs in one basket comes to mind.

All anchors are a compromise and anyone who suggests otherwise (is an anchor salesman).


I accept that my anchors are a compromise but I have a mix. Others contributing to this thread have one anchor, 2 sizes bigger than recommended - and no anchor works well in every seabed.

A Fortress works well in mud (if the mud palms are attached) and sand - in fact it is superb in sand. Roll bar anchors depend on the roll bar to self right - which is not very successful in soft seabeds (those with a thin mud top layer - the roll bar simply sinks into the mud). Roll bar anchors will clog in weed.

etc etc

Jonathan.

[DumnMad]

Originally Posted by Cotemar

The perfect anchor is one that works for your boat.

I Would recommend a new generation anchor that is either flat or concave as the convex ones have a problem bend that lets the horses run a bit.

Especially if you are in an area where you could be at anchor in a storm.

And mud on the anchor is about the type of seabed not the type of anchor. (Although some retain more mud than others.) Sometimes the seabed is such that the chain carries more mud than the anchor.

[congo]

Yes Dumad,

You are right, mud on the chain is something we will always have to contend with, but a bucket of mud.

If you are in a storm, then google concave anchors, more of them dragging than ever, sometimes two sizes larger than of convex designs.

Time is a good thing when it comes to anchor performance, our for fathers would have gone down the same track as we are discussing now, then why would they have settled on convex.

We have now replaced a number of concave design anchors here in Australia so obviously their are some not so impressed.
Regards Rex.

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by JonJo

You cannot galvanise a sealed hollow shanked 'steel' anchor (or a hollow fluke). They would need to perforate the shank (otherwise it blows up) and once perforated there would be doubts of inadequate interior galvanising (because you cannot see it) and thus corrosion would be an issue.

Sorry if this has been previously noted but......Spade? Hollow galvanized shaft!

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Sorry if this has been previously noted but......Spade? Hollow galvanized shaft!

To be precise, you cannot galvanise a hollow, steel SEALED shank

Apologies

Jonathan

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by Cotemar

The perfect anchor is one that works for your boat.

I Would recommend a new generation anchor that is either flat or concave as the convex ones have a problem bend that lets the horses run a bit.

With respect

As you have never used a modern convex anchor your images may be pretty but do not represent reality.

There are simply too many people using Kobra and Excels successfully for their experience to be discarded on the basis of the theory you illustrate. it could be these modern Convex anchors only work in Europe and Australia - but I doubt it. You are just unlucky to be in an area without the choice and opportunity to try.

Jonathan
Jonathan.

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by JonJo

With respect

As you have never used a modern convex anchor your images may be pretty but do not represent reality.

There are simply too many people using Kobra and Excels successfully for their experience to be discarded on the basis of the theory you illustrate. it could be these modern Convex anchors only work in Europe and Australia - but I doubt it. You are just unlucky to be in an area without the choice and opportunity to try.

Jonathan
Jonathan.

My anchor happens to be convex, but the idea that an anchor with a concave fluke has something called a "problem bend" or presents a problem with holding belies a great deal of test data. Perhaps in someone's head this problem exists. Just not in the real world.


For a quick trip to realityville, this video of a convex Excel pulling against 2 concave anchor is worth a look.

http://www.anchorright.com.au/sarca/video

[Cotemar]

Like most things. Cruisers are a bit tight with a buck.
They buy many of those Kobra anchors, not because they are a great anchors.
They buy a Kobra because it’s the cheapest anchor you can buy.

As the Kobra advertisements say
"Similar in performance to the Delta, but much more economic"

Is this something you and Delfin are proud to own?

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by Cotemar

Like most things. Cruisers are a bit tight with a buck.
They buy many of those Kobra anchors, not because they are a great anchors.
They buy a Kobra because it’s the cheapest anchor you can buy.

As the Kobra advertisements say
"Similar in performance to the Delta, but much more economic"

Is this something you and Delfin are proud to own?

A Kobra is a convex anchor. An Excel is a convex anchor. A Yugo is a car. A Maserati is a car. Many of us can tell the difference between a Yugo and a Maserati by looking at how they perform. Many of us can tell the difference between a Delta, a Kobra, a CQR, Super Sarca and an Excel by looking at how they perform. Many of us. Just not all of us.

For those interested in actual data to help determine conclusions, this from our own JonJo in an Ozzie publication:

We tested the Kobra, Spade, Super SARCA, SARCA Excel, Supreme, Delta, Rocna and Ultra. This test illustrated the problems identified in the mud retention tests. The convex anchors, Delta, Super SARCA, SARCA Excel and Kobra (and the slightly concave Spade) all somersaulted, breaking out of the seabed clean and immediately re-setting to 200kg. Basically there were no performance differences. We did test the Super SARCA again, without the bolt so that it could self-trip, but it performed less well in this mode, taking further from its initial set position to a fully re-set position. This is because it trips and drags in the tripped mode before reversing and allowing the shackle to slide to the shank end. The other convex anchors simply somersault and immediately commence to re-set.

The concave anchors, the Supreme and Rocna, performed differently. When they somersaulted the flukes of both were full of impacted seabed. They dragged with their shanks half-buried, fluke to the top, slowly shedding this seabed and it was not until almost clean and the shanks surfaced from the half-buried position that they rolled over and were able to re-set. Subjectively they dragged for 50 percent further than the convex anchors before re-setting. Again the Ultra carried seabed, not much and not enough to affect performance — but enough to raise a minor question.

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by Cotemar

Like most things. Cruisers are a bit tight with a buck.
They buy many of those Kobra anchors, not because they are a great anchors.
They buy a Kobra because it’s the cheapest anchor you can buy.

As the Kobra advertisements say
"Similar in performance to the Delta, but much more economic"

Is this something you and Delfin are proud to own?

Or, if one isn't interested in JonJo's objective testing, what with him being part of Team Sarca and all , then perhaps these tests from Yachting Monthly can help some to calibrate your comments:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...56343320,d.cGE

The Kobra, problem bend and all, beat out other convex anchors, and the Fortress, neither convex nor concave, beat them all. The Kobra outpulled the Delta by 3x.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by JonJo

To be precise, you cannot galvanise a hollow, steel SEALED shank

Apologies

Jonathan

Could you please explain why this is so? Counter intuitive to me...

Jim

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I don't know if I can take it much longer:

So what is the perfect anchor and size? Surely after all this there is a real answer that doesn't use the word depends.

For a 53 foot 25 ton sailboat, our 45kg Ultra is perfect. As a backup, our 35kg CQR will be perfect in a pinch. For added holding during a storm, adding a Fortress 55 to the Ultra is the perfect setup.

Now you have your answer

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I don't know if I can take it much longer:

So what is the perfect anchor and size? Surely after all this there is a real answer that doesn't use the word depends.

Just one opinion, but the perfect anchor is one that will dive and bury itself, which lets out hoop style anchors simply because the hoop will reduce the anchor's ability to dive. The deeper the anchor goes in a blow, the greater the weight of soil holding it in place. Another opinion is that the largest anchor you can handle is going to be superior to a lighter anchor because of simple physics and the effect of gravity. A heavier anchor has more surface area to bury, but more weight to help bury it. Alloy anchors like the Fortress seem to be the exception that proves the rule, but you have to be able to stow and handle a Fortress, and not all boats can. The idea that there is some inherent problem with convex anchors is simply rubbish since all anchor tests belie the notion, and the same anchor tests illustrate that simply because one anchor looks like another (Delta and Kobra or Delta vs. Excel), design matters. The Delta has mediocre holding power while the Kobra and Excel are outstanding - at least according to anchor tests.

Summary - bigger is better because gravity is a real phenomenon, although I am willing to be convinced that an alloy Excel performs as well as a steel one. I doubt it, but I am open to the concept. Concave with a hoop is not going to be as good as concave without a hoop and a convex anchor properly designed performs outstandingly. IMO, the Sarca Excel, Spade, Fortress and the Ultra represent the best anchors available, cost considerations excepted. Two are concave, one is convex and one is flat. All have stout shanks, so can take side loading. All will perform at the top of any anchor test, subject to the next best thing.

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Could you please explain why this is so? Counter intuitive to me...

Jim

A hollow, sealed, steel shank will contain air. When the sealed shank is dropped into the galvansing bath at about 570 degrees C the air is heated and expands, (this is all the fault of Robert Boyle I believe) I guess it depends on the amount of air and the thickness of the shank but considering an Ultra type shank - the resultant air pressure will blow the shank apart, there will be zinc everywhere. Galvanisers will not galvanise sealed bodies of this type. Spade's being open do not suffer with this issue - a steel Ultra would.

Seems intuitive to me.

You could make the shank open, as per Spade, but I am guessing that the buoyancy of the shank is part of the balance - but this is a guess.

Jonathan