Anchors - Bigger is Better ?

[marujo.sortudo]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Well, fellas,

I think Snowpetrel has kept his cool over this. I notice the chap who had good fortune with proven fisherman anchors and heavy chain went ignored. IMO, we should listen to all these guy, even if we don't want to or are unable to deal with 112 lb. anchors.

You guys are really tolerant, and my hat's off to youse all. You have remained tolerant.

Mentioning how great fisherman style anchors can be is a sure way to get ignored in an anchor thread. You don't see folks with them shopping for "new gen" anchors much. Too happy with what they've got. In fairness, they're a pain to cat onto your average boat. Now, if you have a sufficiently long bowsprit, that's a different story.

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by conachair

Assuming those figures and looking at it from a function of force,
as force exerted is proportional the square of the wind speed, 50Kts results in 56% more force per unit area than 40Kts. 20Kg to 33Kg is a 65% increase in mass ( 70% ) , 65% heavier for a 56% increase in holding power puts a very different spin on it from 70% for 10kts.


(are my sums accurate , feel free to correct anyone )

Quite right Conachair, its Spade weight that increases by 70%, I transposed the wrong figure - it does not alter the debate very much.

Maybe if you want to be picky you might like to focus at Cotemar's maths, maybe query him where he gets his 99% from - beats me. I've looked at the poll and cannot get 99% out of it anywhere. But you would not pick on anyone other than someone owning an Excel or someone with a contrary view.

No wonder everyone else has left the thread and forum in droves.

Jonathan

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by marujo.sortudo

Mentioning how great fisherman style anchors can be is a sure way to get ignored in an anchor thread. You don't see folks with them shopping for "new gen" anchors much. Too happy with what they've got. In fairness, they're a pain to cat onto your average boat. Now, if you have a sufficiently long bowsprit, that's a different story.

I delivered a boat with a heavy fishermans stowed on the bowsprit. it was a great anchor, holding instantly in every bottom type I tried it in including the hard sand around Adelaide. It had extra large and very sharp palms bolted on over the original inadequate ones. It was easy enough to stow an deploy. I Also used one in antarctica on Snow Petrel. It held instantly every time we set it, much better than a CQR I used on the peninsular on another boat. We also often used one on my parents boat when I was a kid.

They set quickly and well on a short scope, but have two big flaws, soft mud holding is low for their weight, and if you swing around on them you will foul the upper fluke and pull them out backwards.

Saying that I always like to carry one for those really hard rocky bottoms where nothing else works quite as well.

[congo]

Can't help myself,

Ifind this thread lead weighted to one side, must be something very strange going on with this thread,

Cotemar can't weight to tell all BiB and how intelligent the company was the he states started it?

Undeniable evidence concave hoop combination anchors have a problem, hanging them up in their garages, no longer having faith in them through
a change in wind shift or tide,Manson in weed thread and the below.


Subject: Re: Importing anchors into the UK

Anchor performance.
Spent last two years cruising the Med, Spain Italy and Greece, currently wintering in Sicily, most of our time has been spent at anchor with out incident.
We have watched other boats drag nearby in similar conditions with various anchors normally charter or flotilla boats because they haven't put enough scope out or made any attempted to set the anchor, surprisingly on a couple of occasions in weed, boats dragged nearby in high winds (>30kts) with Rocna's
I.e. 38ft Broadblue cat and 53 Oyster in Stephanos just North of Corfu, both had 10mm chain and Rocna's anchors, thunderstorms caused 30kt+ gusting winds to shift thro 180degs and back again.
We all had similar amounts of scope out for the conditions.Rocna's appeared to have a problem resetting in the weed.
Our boat, Malo 39 with 8mm chain and Spade anchor, held without incident, unfortunately? we were unable take delivery of Sarca before we left the UK.

We have had occasional problem of difficulty in retrieving the anchor after a big blow anchored in good holding as Spade tends to just bury itself, windlass needed boats help to drive over anchor to break loose.
Have only met one boat with a Sarca Excel who reported no problems, I hope they're as good if not better than the £700 Spade.

Safe Anchoring
Alan

No wonder THEY CREATED THAT BiB sloggen as Cotemar has stated, thirty five knots and dragging, one has to ponder did they to already have two sizes larger, dont worry I would not dare mention our anchor designs.
I would advise for some of the BiB fans simply agree because of the anchor brand we know they have.
Have a good day all.
Rex.

[Cotemar]

Congo,

Are you OK ?????

I did not understand a word of your rant.

[congo]

Thanks for your concern Cotemar, yes just fine my friend, sorry you could not understand my last post.

Regards Rex.

[sailorboy1]

You all still talking about anchors? Some of the posts have had all kinds of graphs etc and I wonder it the topic switched to the space race or the intent of North Korea, or something complex like that.

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by Don L

You all still talking about anchors? Some of the posts have had all kinds of graphs etc and I wonder it the topic switched to the space race or the intent of North Korea, or something complex like that.

SnowPetrel's quantification illustrated that a 20kg Rocna dragged at 40 knots (that was the base line) and on this basis an anchor 2 sizes bigger (33kg)would drag at 50 knots, my calculations seem to work out slightly lower at 46 knots (but no-one would be interested and would only make derogatory comments - so why bother?)

For example read Bash 2 posts below, good on yer Bash, you are real hero! I'm sure you feel like a real man!

However the whole reason for going to BIB was to ensure when you were in higher latitudes and the winds were 60-70 knots. One would be quite safe. This suggests, as 33kg - recall it meets BIB, would hold for whatever the yacht at 60-70knots. This to me implies the smaller anchor would hold in 50-60 knots (strongly backed up by Granny Smith - but then that was a special anchor).

I'm not expecting a sensible answer but how many have actually experience winds of 50-60 knots on a consistent basis without making some attempt at mitigating the effects by deploying a second anchor, having moved to a more sheltered location etc etc. Please tell me why for 99.99999% (I'm using Cotemars maths) of the cruising population and 100% of anyone not going to these high latitudes why they need anything that is safe beyond 50-60knots in the same way that the BIB anchor is safe in 60-70 knots.

I am sure some wisecrack will say - but those figures were in an ideal bottom, quite correct - but in a less than ideal bottom the BIB will hold less well, proportionately. And if BIB works, even in poor bottoms at 60-70knots it seems there is a margin for safety and that margin will also be endowed on the 20kg model.

Someone of really superior intellect will say bigger anchors work better - there is no evidence that a big Rocna or a big Spade has any major advantage in any bottom (or if this is correct - none of the manufacturers seem aware).

And if it is possible finally consider - maybe there are anchors that you sadly have not had the pleasure of using, just consider, if you have any imagination, they might work. It is possible that the reason you need go BIB is as a result of a performance deficiency within the choice of anchors available to you. The discussion has been based on 2 different experiences, you with your anchors and lacking the choice and experiences available to Oz and NZ. I'm guessing people were as unaccommodating when the Fortress was introduced and I shudder to think what the initial reaction was when the Spade came on the scene. Possibly instead of being disparaging maybe you should open your minds.:flowers

To those who felt offended over my enthusiasm, it was based on real life experience, and if you are upset by commitment - my sincere apologies.

It makes me really pleased to live in The Lucky Country.

Thanks for your time, sorry if I have wasted it for you

[Bash]

Originally Posted by DumnMad

Cruisers can die because anchor is too small while a day sailor can go out with no anchor.

Seriously? Cruisers can die? Day sailors don't need an anchor?

Sheesh.

[Bash]

Originally Posted by Cotemar

Yes. The answer is that JonJo (the OP) is the only one that likes small anchors.
All 99.999999999 % of the other cruisers use a BIB anchors.

JonJo is the only cruiser I know that also runs his bridle from his stern cleats to his bows. He does things differently, but for the rest of us we tend to use what 99.999999999 % of other cruisers use since we all like to go with experience and not theory.

No worries, it works for him.

After 644 posts, he never did sell the small anchor theory to anyone.

1. JonJo has been arguing in circles ever since joining this forum.

2. The only way to be more wrong that JonJo is if your math is wrong by a factor of ten to the 12th power.

Oops.

[daddle]

Fortunately, and perhaps little known, is that voting has nothing to do with facts or truth. Or being right. Even if 100% of people think something is true does not mean it is.

Regarding death from small anchors: here on CF there are all manner of imagined fatalities. Not having all the paper charts is cheating the grim reaper. Instant carnage results from a GPS failure unless few celestial fixes can be had on a moments notice. Fin keels and balsa might get you there once, but don't count on returning. On an on. Something about the way an armchair affects blood circulation in the brain, maybe? Or is it the cold weather in the northern latitudes?

On here in reality having a blast ... so far so good ...

[foolishsailor]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

I delivered a boat with a heavy fishermans stowed on the bowsprit. it was a great anchor, holding instantly in every bottom type I tried it in including the hard sand around Adelaide. It had extra large and very sharp palms bolted on over the original inadequate ones. It was easy enough to stow an deploy. I Also used one in antarctica on Snow Petrel. It held instantly every time we set it, much better than a CQR I used on the peninsular on another boat. We also often used one on my parents boat when I was a kid.

They set quickly and well on a short scope, but have two big flaws, soft mud holding is low for their weight, and if you swing around on them you will foul the upper fluke and pull them out backwards.

Saying that I always like to carry one for those really hard rocky bottoms where nothing else works quite as well.

We have a massive collapsible fishermans that came with the boat. As i had never used one previously we gave it a go, it pretty much works as you describe. We slept on it for a couple of days but i pulled and replaced it our primary, a cqr, so never saw it handle anything over about 25kts or so.

I found it unwieldy with the bow roller but if one was committed to it you could make changes. We have kept it, as you said, to be used as a rock pick but have never needed to use it.

[Kettlewell]

I saw a modern boat one time with a traditional fisherman anchor on its bow roller, with the flukes oriented in a vertical direction, meaning the stock must have been going across the deck. Not sure how it worked with the forestay and the bow pulpit--maybe the forestay was well aft of the stem head on that boat. In any case, apparently a fisherman can be made to work on some boats. Talk about BIB! Luke recommends 2 lbs per foot of waterline length, or about 80-100 lbs for a 45 footer.

[Autumns Wind]

The size of anchor is just part of the holding power of any boat. The chain has just as much if not more then the anchor it self. Big anchor & no chain = no hold or very little. Small anchor & big long chain = average to good hold. Big anchor all chain = will not move or chafe

[foolishsailor]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

I saw a modern boat one time with a traditional fisherman anchor on its bow roller, with the flukes oriented in a vertical direction, meaning the stock must have been going across the deck. Not sure how it worked with the forestay and the bow pulpit--maybe the forestay was well aft of the stem head on that boat. In any case, apparently a fisherman can be made to work on some boats. Talk about BIB! Luke recommends 2 lbs per foot of waterline length, or about 80-100 lbs for a 45 footer.

Unlike many more mdern anchors my fishermans doesnt have a weight listed, but it was awkward and heavier by far than my 25kg cqr.

Our bow roller is sufficiently far out and we are an unpainted aluminum hull so we would pull the anchor up with the stock horizontal. With a couple
jiggles during the final part of the hoist we could get these to ride on the edges of the bow roller and up to the first verticle stantions in the pullpit. Not ideal but as an experiment it worked well enough.