Anchors - Bigger is Better ?

[Kettlewell]

Yes. The answer is that JonJo (the OP) is the only one that likes small anchors.
All 99.999999999 % of the other cruisers use a BIB anchors.

I don't think the answer is so clear cut.

What is your Bigness Factor?
0.5 - 0.9 = Light 15 12.93%
1.0 - 1.2 = Normal 28 24.14%
1.2 - 1.4 = Conservative 34 29.31%
1.5 + = BIB 39 33.62%

[DumnMad]

I think its clear-cut for cruisers who go to remote locations. Muddied by the opinions of fine weather day-sailors.

[noelex 77]

I don't think we are close to consensus. As in many anchoring threads they tend to become polarised.
I am as guilty as anyone, but I do believe in the BIB philosophy, for the majority of cruising sailboats.

Very few sailors die from dragging boats (although I do know of one unfortunately), but it is a common cause of serious damage to cruising boats. More common than significant damage from storms when sailing offshore, for example.

It is easy to dismiss these threads. Sometimes the posturing gets in the way of real message, but if you can distil the knowledge from all the opinions it will be valuable information that will keep your boat safe.

I think in this thread we have managed to avoid personal attacks and argue the subject on its merits, which is way it should be.

My own opinion, for what its worth, is that the concept of two smaller anchors to hold the boat in strong wind, for the most part, belongs to days when particular designs of anchors only functioned well in narrow range of substrates. Different anchors hopefully ensured one would be suitable.

In addition only small anchors could be managed by hand, or a manual anchor winch.

Powerful, reliable, electric anchor winches with new generation anchors that perform, at least reasonably, in everything from hard sand to soft mud, teamed with winches that can easily raise heavy anchors have altered the game plan.

An extra 10-20kg on the bow is nothing compared to the added security, and safety, this minimal extra weight conveys to a cruising boat.

As well as security in strong winds a larger anchor allows for the possibility of anchoring in (relatively) poorer holding grounds and a shorter scopes. These are valuable tools to have available for a cruising yacht.

A second anchor can always be deployed,for whatever reason, even if you have a BIB main anchor. The BIB main anchor will only enhance the performance of the total system.

[Kettlewell]

Just for kicks I checked out various manufacturer's websites and used their tables to select suggested anchor sizes for boats of various lengths. The tables showed ranges, so I selected the middle of the range if possible, and when in doubt went for the next bigger one. There is a definite trend in that the new-gen anchor companies, with the distinct exception of the Spade folks, recommend much larger sizes than are suggested for the CQR and Delta, two popular anchors that are now considered old-gen. I wonder why this is so, if the new-gen anchors are supposed to have far superior holding power?

[Cotemar]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

I also posted this on the BIB thread. Just for kicks I checked out various manufacturer's websites and used their tables to select suggested anchor sizes for boats of various lengths. The tables showed ranges, so I selected the middle of the range if possible, and when in doubt went for the next bigger one. There is a definite trend in that the new-gen anchor companies, with the distinct exception of the Spade folks, recommend much larger sizes than are suggested for the CQR and Delta, two popular anchors that are now considered old-gen. I wonder why this is so, if the new-gen anchors are supposed to have far superior holding power?

Rocna started the BIB trend.
Then everyone started using them and said, Hey. I have not dragged anchor in four years now. These guys must be onto something.

What's and extra 10lbs or more to your anchor, if it stops you from dragging.

I only hear one person in all these anchor threads that says, Hey a small anchor is better(SIB) .

Its like driving a MINI with a family of 28. It will get you their, but it will really suck.

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by Cotemar

Rocna started the BIB trend.
Then everyone started using them and said, Hey. I have not dragged anchor in four years now. These guys must be onto something.

What's and extra 10lbs or more to your anchor, if it stops you from dragging.

I only hear one person in all these anchor threads that says, Hey a small anchor is better(SIB) .

Its like driving a MINI with a family of 28. It will get you their, but it will really suck.

Thanks Cotemar,

I'm not suggesting small, I'm suggesting recommended sized over 2 sizes bigger.

So you misread twice, its not small - it the size recommended and 2 sizes bigger for a 20kg Rocna is not 10lb more it 13kg, which for you would be about 29lb more.

I also wonder how long your snubbers are - through this an various threads the suggestion is consistently they need to be long, like 10m -for a cat 2 x 10m+. Precisely how do you achieve that simply and neatly. Our snubbers sit permenantly down the side decks, 13m each side, what do you do with yours.

Jonathan

[JonJo]

SnowPetrel,

There was a suggestion that its not weight but surface area that engenders holding capacity (or anti drag). I wonder what increased safety margin of wind speed is available for say a 33kg Rocna over a 20kg at say 40 knots. If the 20kg anchor drags at 40knots at what wind speed would the 33kg anchors drag?

Jonathan

[Cotemar]

Originally Posted by JonJo

I also wonder how long your snubbers are - through this an various threads the suggestion is consistently they need to be long, like 10m -for a cat 2 x 10m+. Precisely how do you achieve that simply and neatly. Our snubbers sit permenantly down the side decks, 13m each side, what do you do with yours.

Jonathan

I agree about have a long snubber, but not 10m (33 feet).
Most cruisers are using 6m (20 feet) of snubber and let the chain hook just hit the water and a loose loop of chain into the water to add weight (catenary) to the chain.

If you want more snubber, I would not recommend going to your stern cleats, I would recommend adding Rubber Mooring Snubbers

[downunder]

Cotemar,

Did ROCNA start the BIB trend ? I thought it more likely was Steve Dashew that first was promoting it widely. Rocna may well have then got on the bandwagon.

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by Cotemar

I agree about have a long snubber, but not 10m (33 feet).
Most cruisers are using 6m (20 feet) of snubber and let the chain hook just hit the water and a loose loop of chain into the water to add weight (catenary) to the chain.

If you want more snubber, I would not recommend going to your stern cleats, I would recommend adding Rubber Mooring Snubbers

Rubber snubbers and anchor Shockles are a waste of time and money. They have reached their full stretch below 30 knots, so just when you start to need them they are simply decoration. Have you tried running your snubbers from the stern cleats and have any reason to suggest not running them down the sidedecks?

I note, Cotemar, you are a very strong advocate of BIB but recall youranchor hardly meets 2 sizes bigger. I would think 20kg or 25kg would be about right for a Mahe 36, which means you might be excepted to carry a 33kg or 40kg Rocna given you enthusiasm for BIB? Maybe if you had longer snubbers you could use an even lighter anchor

Jonathan

[Hudson Force]

How could Rocna have started the trend? I'm sure that the Vikings, and the Phoenicians far earlier, were debating wether to tie on a bigger rock!

[Cotemar]

Originally Posted by JonJo

Maybe if you had longer snubbers you could use an even lighter anchor

Jonathan

Maybe so, but if you where to use a BIB anchor, you would not need to run your snubbers to the stern cleats.

Your compensating for your smaller anchor and do not want the shock loads to unset the smaller is better (SIB) anchor

It works for you, but your the only one we have ever heard of do that.

[sabray]

I have heard of running snubbers back along the decks before. Best might be to have a really high chafe braided line from the chain to the hawse and then three strand running back along the deck. I run rhode back to my big winchs when preparing for a big blow. Taking shock loads off any anchor and related hardware is going to be good.

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by sabray

I have heard of running snubbers back along the decks before. Best might be to have a really high chafe braided line from the chain to the hawse and then three strand running back along the deck. I run rhode back to my big winchs when preparing for a big blow. Taking shock loads off any anchor and related hardware is going to be good.

Thanks Sabray, now I no longer feel the pariah Cotemar suggests! The only major wear area for us, as we have a bridle/snubber is where the snubbers run over the forward cross beam - we have simply run the 11mm braided line (rock climbing rope) through 18 inches of hose pipe. Rather than need to set up each time we run through the bases of the stanchions, one could run between the stanchions and the toe rail (on a mono) but you would need some form of chafe guard where the rope passes through a fairlead or over the bow roller to the chain hook. Our system is 'not in the way' and does for lunch or a major wind. Our stern cleats are big enough to take both the snubbers and a mooring line (if we go in for fuel etc).

Jonathan

[JonJo]

Noelex,

You made the comment somewhere that snubbers could be too long, catapaulting the yacht back. Your comment seems sound - but might benefit from more information.

a 2m snubber is too short, a 40m snubber too long, really good catapaulting potential! Any experience, based on a nylon with 30% ultimate elasticity? We have not found it an issue but maybe is we went to 9mm it might become a problem?

Jonathan