Anchoring etiquette questions...

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Greg K

Interesting reply. I am not a lawyer, maritime or otherwise, but my understanding is that an anchored vessel properly daymarked and lit up at night has the legal right not to be interfered with by other boats. I would be interested to see the actual legal wording in maritime law which disputes that understanding specifically as regards anchored vessels. As for failing to do anything about the potential danger, is not bringing the fact to the operator of the offending vessel that they are putting themselves and your vessel in danger and, therefore, requesting that they move not considered an action taken to avoid the mishap? And, isn't ignoring such a request a flagrant act of irresponsible behavior on the part of the offending skipper?

I am in fact a lawyer but I'm not going to give a lecture here. Normally I get paid for that.



Long story short -- if you judge your vessel is in danger, remonstrating to the other skipper does not count for anything. You are obligated to take whatever measures are needed to make your own vessel safe. What the other guy does has nothing to do with it. His "flagrant irresponsibility" doesn't justify irresponsibility on your part. And not moving if you think an accident is likely is -- irresponsible.



You have no rights at sea; only obligations. Keep your vessel safe.


Yes, there is case law -- going back to the 19th century -- that vessels coming later to an anchorage are obligated not to interfere with vessels who came earlier. But those obligations do not benefit you. You are still obligated to keep your own vessel safe, whatever the other guy does or doesn't do.

[eheffa]

Thank you Dockhead.

This is helpful.

[Greg K]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I am in fact a lawyer but I'm not going to give a lecture here. Normally I get paid for that.



Long story short -- if you judge your vessel is in danger, remonstrating to the other skipper does not count for anything. You are obligated to take whatever measures are needed to make your own vessel safe. What the other guy does has nothing to do with it. His "flagrant irresponsibility" doesn't justify irresponsibility on your part. And not moving if you think an accident is likely is -- irresponsible.



You have no rights at sea; only obligations. Keep your vessel safe.


Yes, there is case law -- going back to the 19th century -- that vessels coming later to an anchorage are obligated not to interfere with vessels who came earlier. But those obligations do not benefit you. You are still obligated to keep your own vessel safe, whatever the other guy does or doesn't do.

I am well aware that you are a lawyer. It is why I posed the questions to you. Though you are clearly aware of case law regarding anchoring, the rest of your answer does not seem to take it into account at all. While, of course, once an accident is imminent or in progress one does whatever one can to minimize damage, it can also be argued that one can't ever really be certain the boat that has just anchored next to you will come on top of you and cause serious damage at some point and, therefore it would seem unreasonable to expect an already anchored vessel to do anything more than to alert the new comer of the "potential" danger, particularly in view of case law. I can see special circumstances such as when an incoming vessel may be disabled and, therefore, unable to re-anchor in which case one has no choice but move one's boat out of potential harm's way but, I suppose, case law is still applied in ordinary circumstances when the incoming boat simply ignores the potential danger. I say this because I believe that what is reasonable is still considered in such cases, and it seems unreasonable under normal circumstances to expect an already anchored boat to move every time an irresponsible skipper anchors too closely and ignores a request to anchor further away. The onus is still very much on the incoming vessel to stay clear and, I suppose, any settlement, should such a case go to court, would reflect that.

Not being a lawyer, I may be completely wrong on this, of course, but I'll take my chances.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Greg K

. . . I believe that what is reasonable is still considered in such cases, and it seems unreasonable under normal circumstances to expect an already anchored boat to move every time an irresponsible skipper anchors too closely and ignores a request to anchor further away. The onus is still very much on the incoming vessel to stay clear and, I suppose, any settlement, should such a case go to court, would reflect that. . . .

Well, it just doesn't work like that. You don't have the right to do nothing if you judge that there is a danger to your vessel. This is true in all situations at sea. For example, you don't have the right to carry on holding your course and speed when another vessel is ignoring its obligation to give way. And you don't have the right to stay anchored in a place which in your judgement is now dangerous because some "idiot" has anchored wrong. In both cases you have an obligation to act.

In neither case is complaining to the other skipper considered an adequate measure, if the complaint doesn't result in action. Much less just waiting for the accident and just planning to blame the other skipper.

I guess the best way to look at it is this -- you are ALWAYS responsible for the safety of your vessel -- the safety of your vessel is always and under all circumstances YOUR PROBLEM. Whatever some other skipper does or does not do, no matter how stupid it is, that does not reduce your own responsibility, so you can NEVER just sit back and make it someone else's problem, no matter how "stupid" or "irresponsible" the other skipper is.

That's probably the most basic principle of maritime law and of also just of how we do things at sea. Accordingly, legal cases where only one vessel is solely responsible for all the damage caused in a collision are exceptionally rare. There is almost always something both skippers could have done, and the law expects you to do it.

If you were ever to say in court, if God forbid you ever end up there, "I knew the other guy anchored wrong but I was first so it was his problem" -- you will be skewered. You might even end up with MORE liability than the other skipper because he just didn't know, so he was merely negligent, but you did know -- so you willfully exposed your vessel to danger.

And furthermore -- suppose we're not just talking about some gel coat damage, but actual danger to life -- someone's else's bad anchoring results in your anchor getting pulled out and you go onto the rocks in a storm and someone on board your boat drowns. Do you really think anyone would consider afterwards, that you had done your job as skipper by just complaining and then going to bed? Rather than moving? Or just going back out to sea? Of course not; in fact in some countries you could go to jail for that. There is no principle distinction between this and physical damage to your boat; again, your obligations are not reduced by someone's else's stupidity.

In fact, you could say that your responsibility as skipper is INCREASED if you are dealing with an incompetent skipper on the other vessel.


Blaming others is the farthest thing from the mind of a real seaman. The whole mentality of a real seaman is based on responsibility and agency. We are like gods whose charge is dealing with whatever the sea and nature deal us; we are never the passive victims of someone else's stupidity.

[barcoMeCasa]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Well, it just doesn't work like that. You don't have the right to do nothing if you judge that there is a danger to your vessel.
✂

Personally imho after a load of years living on the hook there's usually no need to over think things on a boat, just take a moment to just ask yourself honestly "does this feel right.." seems to work well almost always 🙂. If you need to ask then usually something's not right & needs changing.

No matter how much we like to fool ourselves we can actually control next to nothing in the outside world, though we can some control the little local bubble of illusory reality our brain creates.

For example, little while back after a long solo passage in Portugal I find a nice free spot in an anchorage on the radar and get the hook dropped just in the right place then straight away a huge motor boat comes in next to me, close but not *really* close, then another smaller motor boat with a Portuguese family onboard anchors close, but not *really* close, on the other side.
Suddenly the state of calm in the mind turns into blame, it's all their fault, things should be different... Very likely not a problem but a very small real chance of a wind gust turning into slight calamity.
So move it is, just the best thing to do, deep down not really down to any expert ability to predict the future, but because I prefer to feel relaxed, then pulling up the hook the Portuguese guy with a huge smile says thanks with a deep bow & contentment is restored 😁

Bottom line is imho nearly all of the time we kid ourselves making up stories in our heads of how the outside world should be and why it should be so but nearly always it's much easier just to do something which will make you feel happier 😎

Completely different to the purely black and white fictitious world people sail in on social media 🤣

[Lambretta]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

Some years ago, came across a relatively old geezer, in what seemed to be his first boat and also his first attempt to anchor.
Anchorage had depths of around 10' or so, and the anchorage area was quite large, easily holding several dozen boats. He was one of the latecomers to the place.

He proceeded to drop his anchor, replete with anchor marker and started to lay out scope.

It appeared he was doing this "by the book" and by the time he was done, he had easily a good 250' of scope out, likely more. my best guess.

Then he set up " anchor watch" by sitting on the foredeck in a plastic chair and yelled and screamed at any newcomer that came anywhere near his anchor line.

Then to make matters worse, a squall came thru' and the wind direction changed to many different directions.

What ensued was a cluster of gigantic proportions, as his boat seemed to be intent on hitting every boat in the anchorage.

Cuss words were flying thru' the air, thick and thin, and most everyone was telling the guy to reduce scope, but he would have none of it.

I thought the whole affair was going to have a bad ending, but the guy's wife came to the rescue and quietened him down and managed to persuade him to up anchor and try somewhere else, which he reluctantly did, leaving us to nurse our gin and tonics once more.

On the other hand of the scale, a charter cat hove into sight at the same anchorage.
He found a spot, and dropped anchor. When the anchor hit bottom, he snubbed it off, and he and his crew all jumped into their dink to enjoy a beer ashore. Considering he had about 10' of chain out, laying on top of his anchor, it didn't take long before the cat decided to take off. Once again, mayhem ensued and other sailors decided to take matters into their own hands by jumping on the cat to let out more rode.
The revelers came back a few hours later, completely unaware that their charter cat was now in a different spot.

So, these things happen, you just take it all in stride as part and parcel of the whole cruising life.

Yup I have seen that movie at least five times in the last 18 months! .... In fact one muppet on a charter cat (in Guadelope) did as you said and his yacht was rescued in his absence and re anchored further out ....... so when he got back he moved it back to the original position. Now in calmer weather ...... the next day he left and his boat moved again! ..... this time someone rescued it again but then tied the yacht off onto a mooring ball ....... not sure what happened next as we left the anchorage! Free entertainment unless you are unwittinglingly involved. Yesterday (in Mallorca) had a real clown on a 95 ft motor yacht come into the anchorage and then laid his anchor and then reversed into the wind to set it I shouted to him that he could not anchor like that (he did not have his radio on ...... suprise) well in less than 5 minutes he was swinging onto a 45ft Lagoon Cat .... and fortunately just managed to salvage the situation before they touched. He was somewhat red faced and he sure did not like being shown up by a sailor and he upped anchor and left ....... hopefully to never be seen (near me!!) again!

[Mike OReilly]

All this discussion is why I place little stock or value in the oft-repeated notion that the first into an anchorage somehow controls how everyone else is to behave. Everyone has an equal obligation to avoid a collision. Boats coming into an anchorage have an obligation to anchor in a safe and secure way. That means taking into account existing boats, and how they are laid out. But it doesn’t give the “first-in” some magical ability to dictate how everyone else anchors.

As an anchored boat, if someone anchors in a way that bothers you, you can ask them to change, but after that all you can do is change your situation, likely by moving.

Ultimately, you can’t change others. You can only change yourself.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

... Ultimately, you can’t change others. You can only change yourself.

That reminds me of a quotation, by Joshua Fields Millburn:
“You can't change the people around you, but you can change the people around you.” [perhaps, by moving to new surroundings, with different people]
➥ https://www.goodreads.com/author/quo...ields_Millburn

[Greg K]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Well, it just doesn't work like that. You don't have the right to do nothing if you judge that there is a danger to your vessel. This is true in all situations at sea. For example, you don't have the right to carry on holding your course and speed when another vessel is ignoring its obligation to give way. And you don't have the right to stay anchored in a place which in your judgement is now dangerous because some "idiot" has anchored wrong. In both cases you have an obligation to act.

In neither case is complaining to the other skipper considered an adequate measure, if the complaint doesn't result in action. Much less just waiting for the accident and just planning to blame the other skipper.

I guess the best way to look at it is this -- you are ALWAYS responsible for the safety of your vessel -- the safety of your vessel is always and under all circumstances YOUR PROBLEM. Whatever some other skipper does or does not do, no matter how stupid it is, that does not reduce your own responsibility, so you can NEVER just sit back and make it someone else's problem, no matter how "stupid" or "irresponsible" the other skipper is.

That's probably the most basic principle of maritime law and of also just of how we do things at sea. Accordingly, legal cases where only one vessel is solely responsible for all the damage caused in a collision are exceptionally rare. There is almost always something both skippers could have done, and the law expects you to do it.

If you were ever to say in court, if God forbid you ever end up there, "I knew the other guy anchored wrong but I was first so it was his problem" -- you will be skewered. You might even end up with MORE liability than the other skipper because he just didn't know, so he was merely negligent, but you did know -- so you willfully exposed your vessel to danger.

And furthermore -- suppose we're not just talking about some gel coat damage, but actual danger to life -- someone's else's bad anchoring results in your anchor getting pulled out and you go onto the rocks in a storm and someone on board your boat drowns. Do you really think anyone would consider afterwards, that you had done your job as skipper by just complaining and then going to bed? Rather than moving? Or just going back out to sea? Of course not; in fact in some countries you could go to jail for that. There is no principle distinction between this and physical damage to your boat; again, your obligations are not reduced by someone's else's stupidity.

In fact, you could say that your responsibility as skipper is INCREASED if you are dealing with an incompetent skipper on the other vessel.


Blaming others is the farthest thing from the mind of a real seaman. The whole mentality of a real seaman is based on responsibility and agency. We are like gods whose charge is dealing with whatever the sea and nature deal us; we are never the passive victims of someone else's stupidity.

That's some serious waxing poetic, counsellor. You must have been quite an impressive orator in divorce court or whatever type of law you practice. Unfortunately, little of what you say has any bearing on the reality of anchoring in peak season in the Balearics. If one were to follow your thinking, the only realistic solution would simply be to not cruise in this area during such a busy time, which is, in fact, partially our solution. It is mid-August and our boat is docked in her slip and will remain there probably until around the last week of August when the crowds start to get a little thinner.

There is no doubt whatsoever that everyone in these anchorages is aware of case law, and knows that being the new boat they are responsible for maintaining safe distance. When things get dangerous, as when an unexpected high swell develops in the middle of the night, they up anchor and boot it out there because they know they are too close and it's dangerous. And that they themselves are the source of the danger.

Much of what goes on in these anchorages is a kind of calculated risk taking and, to some extent, a game of chicken. Usually it is harmless. The new comer who anchors too close knows that he has two choices: move now when there is still visibility or possibly having to move in the middle of the night when I bang on their hull from my deck. If they are intelligent, they choose the former.

And as far as all that talk about seaman-like behaviour and anchoring, the first sign of an intelligent and responsible skipper is that if there is any doubt about a potential problem, they check with the boat closest to them if they are ok with where you've anchored. If there is potential solution that is satisfactory to both, that's where it starts.

[Johan Leopard51]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

well the real rule of anchoring is:

He who is the most worried needs to move first.

I had a guy cry once because I didn't want to, and didn't, move. Yet he himself didn't move so just how concerned was he?

Who was there first????

[Johan Leopard51]

I am ASTOUNDED by several posts that imply that if you don’t like how a late arrival set for the night, you should move!

I have finned over many times (charterers seem oblivious of radio) to explain nicely where my anchor is and what length I have out and how in this spot with this forecast, it is a bad idea where he is, for both him mand that 2 meter submerged mushroom over there that he never spotted.

I have also arrived in bays with map marked buoys to find an idiot on anchor almost next to the buoy. Buoys are BY FAR the best solution.

ALL of this reinforces for me that local authorities that rely on tourism should put out HUNDREDS of moorings with good buoys. Where we spend our time in tropics we’d rather inconvenience ourselves and go to a buoy a few miles further than drop anchor that WILL MOST CERTAINLY leave 1/4 a football field of coral devastation because of idiots that don’t know how to pick sandy spots.

Our favorite game is snorkeling for “lost” anchors. The chains are usually impossible to extract but we’ve salvaged many anchors that got stuck beyond the ability of that crew to bring up.

If I had my way, no vessel would be allowed bareboat charter in sensitive ecologies like the tropics. I have never had a problem with a local skipper at a crowded bay.

That said, with all the different approaches to anchorage, when you arrive in a bay without buoys and there are 12 vessels already there, it is hard to guess whose anchor is where and had how much length who has out.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by Johan Leopard51

Who was there first????

It only matters to the sea lawyers

Go ahead and let your boat get hit while to saying to yourself "I was here first"

[donradcliffe]

Typical lawyer language. They are paid to push grey boundaries into black and white. The nice thing about lawyers is that you don't agree with them, you can easily find another lawyer.

There is rarely a black and white answer as to whether someone is anchoring too close. If they swing into contact on their freshly set anchor, they are too close, but most people aren't that stupid.

On the other hand, if you are anchoring in a tidal current like Charleston harbor or La Paz, there is a fair chance that a boat could kiss yours during the next tidal change. But it is not likely to cause serious damage.

If strong winds are forecast in an anchorage with crappy holding, there is a reasonable good chance that other boats will drag into you. A French boat had a fit because I anchored 3 boat lengths downwind of him in Deshaies. There weren't any good alternatives, so I stayed put. He dragged that night, and it wasn't his first time.

I remember anchoring in the Lagoon in Grenada near a boat which tried to get me to move, then finally moved himself. Three hours later he had two new boats which were closer than I had been. He was coming up from Brazil, and had no idea how crowded the Lagoon could get.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Greg K

. . . Unfortunately, little of what you say has any bearing on the reality of anchoring in peak season in the Balearics. If one were to follow your thinking, the only realistic solution would simply be to not cruise in this area during such a busy time, which is, in fact, partially our solution. . .

What I have to say applies ESPECIALLY to situations like this. Certainly the law is no different, just because the anchorage is crowded and other skippers are foolish. And yes -- if you can't anchor safely and your only plan is to scold other skippers and then attempt to blame them if something goes wrong -- you can't anchor there. And why would you even want to?

Originally Posted by Greg K

. . . And as far as all that talk about seaman-like behaviour and anchoring, the first sign of an intelligent and responsible skipper is that if there is any doubt about a potential problem, they check with the boat closest to them if they are ok with where you've anchored. If there is potential solution that is satisfactory to both, that's where it starts.

I agree entirely, but that's not the case we were discussing. If the other skipper is not like that, then you have to take matters into your own hands and make your vessel safe by your own actions.

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by Johan Leopard51

I have also arrived in bays with map marked buoys to find an idiot on anchor almost next to the buoy. Buoys are BY FAR the best solution.

ALL of this reinforces for me that local authorities that rely on tourism should put out HUNDREDS of moorings with good buoys. Where we spend our time in tropics we’d rather inconvenience ourselves and go to a buoy a few miles further than drop anchor that WILL MOST CERTAINLY leave 1/4 a football field of coral devastation because of idiots that don’t know how to pick sandy spots.


That said, with all the different approaches to anchorage, when you arrive in a bay without buoys and there are 12 vessels already there, it is hard to guess whose anchor is where and had how much length who has out.

Your reality is a bit different than mine. I have had 5 moorings fail on me personally, and know of many more. The locals put in 25 screw moorings in Tobago, and 3 had backed out in 6 months. I tied to their mooring, but also put out my own anchor.

It is not too difficult to figure out where a boat's anchor is and its scope. Just ask. There was a boat in Maine with 300 ft of rode out in 20 feet of water, and when I asked, he told me that his engine had died.