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Old 05-03-2011, 12:52   #76
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Re: Anchors Surface Area Comparison - Manson Supreme vs. CQR

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I have anchored overnight for at 90 days a year for the last 20 years. For the last 3 years it has been over 300 days a year.
I have read everything I can get my hands on about anchoring (because its important to my safety). I snorkel and look how my anchor and others in the anchorage have set.

Can make any well-made and time-tested anchor work? No way!

There are many anchorages I cannot get an old a plow or Bruce anchor to set well. Its not lack of experience, they just donít work in some locations and in almost all locations they donít work as well as the new generation anchors.
Run to sea, yes its an option, but with the winter storms we get here not an appealing one (The last storm was typical and there 64 Knots in open water outside the anchorage)

My experience anchoring has taught me where to anchor, how to set an anchor with the correct scope and snubber, but more than anything its taught me get the best anchor you can, because no matter how much experience you have you are still dependent on that small lump of metal on the sea bed.
I agree with you and bow to your experience. I am not advocating old designs as superior. I am questioning the proportion of the reality that "new anchors rule" vs. "new anchors are more forgiving of inexperience and lack of scope".

You say: "...they just donít work in some locations and in almost all locations they donít work as well as the new generation anchors."

I can agree with the first part, but would say that the newer style aren't universally good as far as some reports go. There's also techniques such as tandem anchoring that can increase hold in some bottoms, and the logic for some boats of carrying two 10 kg. Deltas or CQRs may make more sense economically or in terms of stowage than a larger "new" design.

As for the second part, surely "don't work as well" has to be considered in light of the conditions. Many, many people are continuing to use the "legacy" designs without trouble or incident, so is the anchor that just works in actuality inferior to the anchor that "works better"?

Again, I am a likely customer for one of these new style anchors, and a substantial one, as well. But I would not leave behind what I know works in similar conditions, because anchors get damaged or lost and there's still a good case for carrying a variety sized for your boat, if you have the space and equipment to handle them.
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Old 05-03-2011, 13:16   #77
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Re: Anchors Surface Area Comparison - Manson Supreme vs. CQR

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I can't help but feel pathos regarding this situation. Our friend Maine Sail, our dear old friend Maine Sail, sitting in his garage, staring at his anchors.

Winter is cruel.
Funny that there should be drift in an anchor thread. I think there is something wrong with people who have so many anchors. I am included in this as I have four.....and 260' of extra all chain rode.....I think Bash should enlist his students in a scientific examination of the anchoring issue to settle the matter once and for all.....It would be a great service to the community.

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Old 05-03-2011, 13:32   #78
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Re: Anchors Surface Area Comparison - Manson Supreme vs. CQR

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I think Bash should enlist his students in a scientific examination of the anchoring issue to settle the matter once and for all
HA!

HA!

HA!
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Old 05-03-2011, 13:40   #79
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Re: Anchors Surface Area Comparison - Manson Supreme vs. CQR

As someone who enjoys reading these threads and, with some guilt, doesn't participate much, I suspect that I speak for a lot of folks by saying that I LOVE anchor discussions, almost more than anything else here.

I don't love these discussions because one learns much about anchoring, but they are incredible commentaries on human nature. When that thing disappears below the visible surface, your boat, your safety, and your reputation may depend utterly on what happens in a realm you cannot see. Even if you dive on your anchor and take a look, when things turn very bad hours later your future rests largely in the realm of faith. Now throw in commercial interest, dogma, tradition, citations of revered authorities, anecdotal experience, the consequences to one's self from the beliefs and practices of others who may be upwind, attempts at proof through experiment, reason, and quantitative analysis, all deployed to reduce the uncertainty of outcomes in possibly horrific circumstances and you have the perfect mix for drama. Who would go to church that knew about anchor threads?

So in the interests of all of us in the audience, tell us truly once again, what's the very best anchor? No holding back, say what you really really think!

Ray
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Old 05-03-2011, 13:47   #80
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Re: Anchors Surface Area Comparison - Manson Supreme vs. CQR

I think I can get away with telling one Don Street story here. An old friend was in a bar down in the Caribbean somewhere enduring an endless Don Street lecture on the virtues of the Herreshoff anchor, and how Iolaire never dragged when his beloved Herreshoff anchor was properly set using the correct seamanship, etc. etc. Bored with this line of conversation my friend looked out the window and remarked to Don, "Is that Iolaire passing by right now?" In a few moments Don could be seen rowing feverishly downwind chasing the dragging Iolaire across the harbor.
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Old 05-03-2011, 14:33   #81
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Re: Anchors Surface Area Comparison - Manson Supreme vs. CQR

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But I also contend that it is not always the inadequacies of previous long-standing (and long-holding) designs that is to blame, but the sometimes considerable lack of experience of the person standing over the anchor locker.
I read your insightful post with great interest, and I can relate well with the above section. For the past 14 years I have fielded inquiries and comments that we have received through e-mails, calls, and at boat shows.

I have come to the conclusion that "operator error" is the largest cause of anchor failure, and not anchor design. An example would be an irate boater calling in to complain that he cannot get his anchor to set in 100' of water......when he has all of 120' of anchor rode out.

A strategy such as "power setting" the anchor to insure that it is well dug in and buried, and the understanding that the more of a horizontal pull you put on the anchor, the better the holding power (greater scope = greater holding power) are basic fundamentals that are oftentimes not understood, and are root causes of anchor failure.

I think many of us have seen humorous (yet dangerous) situations in which an inexperienced boater has attempted to anchor near us in a harbor, possibly by simply dropping the anchor & rode overboard and then magically expecting it to set.

Hopefully through forums such as CF, we can all help educate the inexperienced and keep everyone safer in the process.

Regards,
Brian
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Old 05-03-2011, 14:33   #82
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Re: Anchors Surface Area Comparison - Manson Supreme vs. CQR

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I agree with you and bow to your experience. I am not advocating old designs as superior. I am questioning the proportion of the reality that "new anchors rule" vs. "new anchors are more forgiving of inexperience and lack of scope"..

The new anchors are certainly more forgiving of setting technique. In many bottom types the old generation anchors need to be carefully treated to have a chance of setting. The new generation anchors donít seem to be any more tolerant of a short scope ( The Bruce seems to work better than most on a short scope), but they will often set with poor technique.
This is not the only difference however in locations such as hard sand the new generation anchors will set reliably where a plow of Bruce will not set even with the most perfect technique.
The Yachting world anchor test showed this with all their experience the could not get the CQR and Bruce to set in some locations.

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Many, many people are continuing to use the "legacy" designs without trouble or incident, so is the anchor that just works in actuality inferior to the anchor that "works better"? .
I have seen a lot of trouble and incidents from anchoring. In the hard sand anchorages of the Ionian or the weedy anchorages of Croatia a lot of boats drag with only moderate wind conditions.
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Old 05-03-2011, 14:56   #83
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Re: Anchors Surface Area Comparison - Manson Supreme vs. CQR

Squarerigger --

My vote for best post of the month! Hee, hee, hee...

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 05-03-2011, 14:58   #84
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Re: Anchors Surface Area Comparison - Manson Supreme vs. CQR

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So in the interests of all of us in the audience, tell us truly once again, what's the very best anchor? No holding back, say what you really really think! Ray
Ok Ray, to answer your question and to back up what Kettlewell previously stated (the highest holding power per pound in any legitimate test), I need to make a case for the Fortress FX-125.

In the US Navy sand/clay bottom test near Norfolk, VA this 69 lb anchor held 14,800 lbs before the test had to be stopped because one of the diesel engines aboard the test boat began overheating. That calculates to 214 lbs of holding power per pound.

In the Miami sand bottom test, the FX-125 outdid that with a pull of almost 20,000 lbs....until the rope parted. That is almost 290 lbs of holding power per pound.

I think it is safe to say that no other 69 lb anchor on this planet could perform that feat.

Ray, how's that for a shameless self-promotion with no holding back?

Brian
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Old 05-03-2011, 15:09   #85
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Re: Anchors Surface Area Comparison - Manson Supreme vs. CQR

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Awhile back I asked Robert Taylor to assess the design of the roll bar anchors. Bob holds degrees in civil and ocean engineering, and he designed anchoring systems for the US Navy for over 40 years. He also wrote the anchor performance guides for the American Petroleum Institute.

To summarize, Bob stated that the huge roll bar would be a penetration inhibitor in harder soils, and I think that observation is difficult to dispute. As an example, it is difficult to imagine a roll bar anchor penetrating into rocks as well as a plow anchor without a roll bar like a Bruce, CQR, Delta or Spade. That roll bar would almost certainly provide greater resistance to the anchor burying deeper. The same for hard clay, hard mud, or hard sand.

Further still, I have reviewed tests from Australia, France, Germany, Italy, and Sweden in which the roll bar anchors did not perform as well as the older designs in a variety of other bottom conditions, and I believe that in a couple of these tests, the roll bar was cited as a possible reason why. I would be glad to e-mail these tests to you guys if you'd like, just send me a private message.

The above is why I believe that among the newer designs, the Spade should be a better performing anchor than the roll bar models.....but then again, the Sarca Excel from Australia and the Kobra from France, both of which are Delta copies, have been showing impressive results as well.

Regards,
Brian

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IMO, Cooper anchors have a much better idea than the roll bars. A small blade on the shank prevents them from lying upside-down, and also contributes surface area when set.

Boat anchors for yachts, jet skis, inflatables, fishing, diving, cruising, sailing, or tinnys and Kayaks boats - Cooper Anchors
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Old 05-03-2011, 15:41   #86
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Re: Anchors Surface Area Comparison - Manson Supreme vs. CQR

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In a few moments Don could be seen rowing feverishly downwind chasing the dragging Iolaire across the harbor.
Hilarious! All that rowing, no wonder he's still alive.

I like his books because he's the only living writing sailor that makes the Pardeys look new-fangled and perhaps "radical".

I still have my hardcover of "The Ocean Sailing Yacht".
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Old 05-03-2011, 15:52   #87
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Re: Anchors Surface Area Comparison - Manson Supreme vs. CQR

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Hopefully through forums such as CF, we can all help educate the inexperienced and keep everyone safer in the process.

Regards,
Brian
Then I will give you a free marketing idea, Brian. Marketing is what paid for my first boat, after all.

Why not TEACH people how to best use your product? Put out a DVD with every anchor, and stream videos on your website. Drop a diver with a camera down in clear water to show how an anchor properly sets.

Does it not strike people as odd that the simplest devices (like IKEA bookcases or small power tools) come with manuals, sometimes exhaustively so, but that an anchor, which can be used incorrectly in several dozen ways, is handed over without comment?

Few devices are more easily understood via diagram or animation or video than an anchor, because the failure of anchors in terms of breaking free due to strain, short rode, poor setting, etc. are as dramatic.

The benefit is as a value-add. If you teach customers how to use a Fortress properly, purely because you assume (correctly) that their anchoring knowledge may be deficient and/or partial and/or misunderstood, then the proper use of the Fortress will confer upon it an aura of superiority, purely because it is being used properly, as designed, instead of in 100 feet of water, as you cited as a particularly oblivious example of "not getting it".

This is precisely the point I'm making with the argument that any reputable anchor employed properly might be adequate in most situation. Does that mean a fancy new one is needed?

That depends. Some of us, when shown the advantage, pay for the privilege and the "sleep soundly" factor. But that doesn't mean I'm going to say "Oh, honey, it's a Fortress/Spade/Rocna...just let out four times scope, because I'm a lazy, imprudent skipper unclear on the concept".
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Old 05-03-2011, 16:14   #88
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Re: Anchors Surface Area Comparison - Manson Supreme vs. CQR

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IMO, Cooper anchors have a much better idea than the roll bars. A small blade on the shank prevents them from lying upside-down, and also contributes surface area when set.
Those Cooper anchors sure look slick--never heard of them here in the USA. I wonder if they plan on making bigger versions for cruising boats?
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Old 05-03-2011, 16:41   #89
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Re: Anchors Surface Area Comparison - Manson Supreme vs. CQR

S/V Alchemy,

I am hearing you loud and clear. Your idea is a stroke of genius. We include a "Safe Anchoring Guide" with every anchor, and we send these guides out regularly to the US Power Squadrons and Coast Guard Auxiliaries around the country for their boating safety classes.

However, in today's age, people enjoy watching videos that are informative and entertaining, as evidenced by the fact that at last count, YouTube was serving up 1 billion videos per day.....and so clearly some form of video is the best way to reach people with a message.

I have been talking with a company for quite some time which creates brilliant product presentations using animation, and I can quite easily envision them creating a very interesting animation which shows how to properly set an anchor.

I think I could come up with a storyboard for an animation in short order, and it could be fun, but at the same time, some fear could be instilled by showing the consequences of not doing it correctly.

I'm on this. Any interest in consulting?

THANK YOU!

Brian
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Old 05-03-2011, 18:10   #90
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Re: Anchors Surface Area Comparison - Manson Supreme vs. CQR

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So in the interests of all of us in the audience, tell us truly once again, what's the very best anchor? No holding back, say what you really really think!

Ray
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