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cat man do · 17-11-2011, 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by ti325v

there will be a 70 pound skeg aboard in the event we overnight or encounter rough weather.

Whats a 70lb skeg?
And if it is sufficient for overnight or rough weather why buy a lighter anchor?
Its not as if you have to lift it, you have a 2000w windlass.
If it was me, I would just use the 70lber if you think its up for the job,

cat man do · 17-11-2011, 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by ti325v

The bottom conditions are 100% sand. ( I have been stupid enough to jump off the boat with out a compass on occasion and been absolutely lost when I had no reference from the sun, as the bottoms are featureless, flat sand, sand, sand, as in Sahara desert without the dunes....sand. Kind of embarrassing when you have customers behind you who are paying to see reef !

Would this would be the time when I put in a plug for my mates at Cham Island Diving - Hoi An - Vietnam

ti325v · 17-11-2011, 16:26

Hi Cat Man..
Fire away !
I have to keep out of that one for business reasons on a public forum.
If you want the insider info on any dive shop in Vietnam feel free to P.M. me, the only thing I can easily and comfortably say online is to avoid any local operator.
Happy diving !
Larry

cat man do · 17-11-2011, 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by ti325v

Hi Cat Man..
Fire away !
I have to keep out of that one for business reasons on a public forum.
If you want the insider info on any dive shop in Vietnam feel free to P.M. me, the only thing I can easily and comfortably say online is to avoid any local operator.
Happy diving !
Larry

Is that meant as some kind of slur towards them

They may have a couple of locals working for them but the main people don't look local to me, in fact I can guarantee you that they are not.

**Adelie** · 17-11-2011, 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by ti325v

Hello Rtbates and Adelie:
All input is appreciated, the issue of wind shift certainly is of consequence. I can say with 99.9 percent certainty that the winds here are stable, I am always aware of the location of the boat as I have to return to it while diving. We are located about 6* N, in a very unusual location, where two mid ocean currents meet.
We have a very unusual weather pattern here...Winds from the east 8 months of the year, Winds from the west four months of the year. with a transition period of about a week when the swing slowly through North, I have never once seen them shift 180* while at anchor, and during the transition time no more then 90*, The boat has never yet swung 180 at anchor ( To my knowledge it has never swung more then about 30*) . The boat is not allowed out of the harbor when winds are in excess of about 18 knots, ( Local boats are such garbage they break up and sink with shocking regularity so the army closes the harbor and forces the fishing boats in) and we always anchor on the lee side of any island, as we do not just carry divers but snorkelers as well. Sea conditions are flat on anchor, maximum wave height at anchor is 1 possibly 2 feet, or the snorkelers freak out.
The bottom conditions are 100% sand. ( I have been stupid enough to jump off the boat with out a compass on occasion and been absolutely lost when I had no reference from the sun, as the bottoms are featureless, flat sand, sand, sand, as in Sahara desert without the dunes....sand. Kind of embarrassing when you have customers behind you who are paying to see reef !
Really I cannot image any boat having to confront such consistent anchorages and mild conditions, and it we do get caught out, we, by law must have three crew on the boat and there is the 70 pound skeg that can be deployed with in 3-5 minutes. I do clearly understand that I am setting a perfect anchorage scenario, and I believe it is 100% accurate, having been diving here for a year.
Of course a margin of safety is always appropriate, and I do not want to cut things too close, that is simply stupid. If I ever encountered mud, rubble, an unmanned boat, high winds, strong currents, I would be the first to put 150 pounds over the side and rig up one of the local car rear ends and axles along with the required hydraulics to make it work. It is proven "technology" here...but then they still turn their bilge pumps on manually, they do not have bilge water alarms and carry their fresh water on the roof of the pilot house.....thousands of pounds 15 feet above the water. (In cheap plastic tanks with no baffles !)
If I lose that boat I lose my business, sure it is insured, but they never pay here and the lost income while I build a new new would ruin me both mentally and financially...see the post
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ase-49854.html
for some funnies of what I went through building her...including some great pix of the build.

I do not want to be the idiot going against good solid advice and if anybody out there is reading this and feels that 35-40 pounds on 12 mm, is simply stupid having read all the details I have posted, please feel free to add a line that says "you are an idiot" and I will reconsider, as I know I do not know and I have come here for advice from experts. People with good solid experience. As I am an expert on the diving subject and do give back in diving forums all the time.

Thanks again everybody !

Weight wise you are just fine, the danforth will outhold any comparable anchor. It's weakness is when the wind veers. 30* is not much, 90* is. During a veer the anchor may break out and it may not reset itself. For an untended boat (crew asleep or off the boat) this is a major issue. With crew standing by not so much, especially since you have a separate divers line. If the boat starts dragging crew paying attention to the diver's line may noticing it behaving oddly as it's bottom weight is drug around.

If you want to deal with the veering problem then you would want a Delta anchor, (35lb or 45lb, $360-470).

Newer designs might work a little better in setting and during a veer, but the cost will go up by 50%-300% or more. Older designs like the Bruce would probably also work but being a cast piece would be very difficult to repair. I am unsure about the CQR design whether it would be easily welded for repairs, I know it's drop forged, but what that does for weldability I don't know.

My suggestion would be to get the danforth and chain now and the delta in a year. Do an upgrade on the boat on a regular schedule and plan ahead for the time and expenditures. As a dive boat do you have guards around you prop to keep divers from being shredded? Another upgrade to schedule if not. Good PR and good risk management.

ti325v · 17-11-2011, 17:58

No slur in any way shape or form....
I have worked at most of the dive shops in the country, and know what goes on behind the scenes..... In actual fact I do not know if Cham Island is Western or Vietnamese owned.
I strongly believe it is western owned. I can find out with a phone call, to get to the real truth, something that in never apparent here in Vietnam.
Now we are getting into the realm of where I know what I am talking about I can say for a fact that I did my instructor program a number of years ago with 2 instructor candidates from a certain dive shop located in Hoi An who were openly talking about taking divers to 50+ meters far beyond their training and experience.
( This was with in ear shot of a PADI Instructor Examiner and 2 PADI Course Directors myself and the 9 other Instructor candidates where gob smacked !) ,
This was simply cowboy behavior with no goal other then to go deep, these are purely recreational divers, with no technical training.
I have the only wreck in Vietnam and the deck is at 32 meters, NOBODY goes there without a check out dive unless they have significant logged recent experience at that depth, and we still have problems. I loose a bit of business and trips to this wreck because people often have only one day to dive here.
I know there are no hard and fast rules, as there are no scuba police, but simple common sense and SSI and PADI policy define and restrict recreational diving to a maximum depth of 40 meters. Only With suitable TRAINING and equipment !
The shop I am talking about is a PADI shop and could face sanctions and possibly expulsion from PADI for doing this.
I would never CONSIDER it, and only go to those depths with redundant air supplies.
When the brown stuff starts flying at those depths it goes FAST and the consequences are dire !
I cannot hold the owners of this dive shop in Hoi An responsible for the actions of a couple of cowboys, but there is no other western owned shop that would permit that in this country...Perhaps management did not know, perhaps they did.
Sorry if I am ranting, but this is a hot topic for me, as an instructor watching the dumbing down of training standards, the rotten gear, bad air....I have a Vietnamese D.M. who worked for a western shop, the staff were often puking because the air was so bad.
In conclusion I cannot say for certain that Western shops are better then Vietnamese owned, it is a pretty good ground rule though.
Regarding the name of the shop I am talking about in Hoi An....I am under the impression you have dived there. I admit this was long ago, and it could have been without the owners knowledge, some things change the some stay the same...

Regarding local operators... I cannot name any specific dive op in public but....the vast majority of local operators are to put it gently negligent. I have worked on local boats with EMPTY oxygen tanks ! (First thing I check when starting a new job) It took three weeks to get a fill, when there is a gas factory in town and you can walk into any big medical supply and walk out with a 2000 liter tank in 10 minutes for $30. Tank included....
There are plenty of choices available here in Vietnam, the locally owned ones tend to be cheaper...the western owned tend to be better and more expensive.... The difference in safety on this spectrum is enormous.

**Jim Cate** · 17-11-2011, 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by ti325v

Hello Rtbates and Adelie:
All input is appreciated, the issue of wind shift certainly is of consequence.

I do not want to be the idiot going against good solid advice and if anybody out there is reading this and feels that 35-40 pounds on 12 mm, is simply stupid having read all the details I have posted, please feel free to add a line that says "you are an idiot" and I will reconsider, as I know I do not know and I have come here for advice from experts. People with good solid experience. As I am an expert on the diving subject and do give back in diving forums all the time.

Thanks again everybody !

Nope, you are not an idiot! There, I've said it!

In the conditions that you stipulate a 35 lb Danforth will be quite adequate. Small windshifts will not be a problem. Only thing that I would challenge is the 12 mm rode. Probably ok when new, but not much margin for chafe, wear or sun damage. If it were me, I'd go for 16 mm minimum (and do be sure that it is really nylon!).

Oh... all the talk about repairing your anchor -- sheesh, mate, what are they on about? Under your conditions the only repair you'll ever need is to regalvanize it, 'cause sand does tend to wear the zinc away pretty fast.

Don't let the worry warts wear you down!

Cheers,

Jim

ti325v · 22-03-2012, 11:40

As your request, the price is as follows:

YDW013/1400W/24V----------$590,
hands witch,solenoid is free with our winch.
Circuit breaker-------------$10
Remote control------------$16
Bow roller and 2 rope guide rollers

ALL HARDWARE and anchors in STAINLESS Steel.
er

Bruce 20kg,ss316-------$250.8
Plow 22kg ss316---------$286
Delta 20kg ss316--------$248 (no 27kg)
Wing 20kg ss316--------$236
Danforth 22 Kg ss316 $260
Chain 10mm ss316------$17.41/m
Anchor roller, deck roller $30
Nylon Rope 12mm------$0.55/m

We recommend 95m*12mm rope (.48 inches) +5m*10mm chain to our YDW013, The rope capacity is limited to 75 meters rope and 5 m 10mm chain.
Should be fine for your depths of 20 meters.
The attachment is our handbook of winch,for your information.

Total cost to me, about $1000
Import tax 300
Freight about $ $ 100

Complete anchoring system is about $1,500 All in stainless....what do you guys think of the price, WHICH ANCHOR ? I am concerned about damage to a Danforth !!!!!!!
All have guarantee of 3 years !
Thanks
ti325v

SailFastTri · 22-03-2012, 12:28

Why Stainless? Stainless is for boats that are primarily used as dock trophies. Go galvanized and save $. I think you should go up a rope size. Also if you anchor in 20m depth that proposal only gives you 4:1 scope (not even allowing for bow height) and you need to allow for 7:1 or greater for storm conditions. You need more length overall. If the weight of your anchor choices are all equal the Danforth will provide the best holding once set, but as others noted it does not reset reliably if the pull direction reverses changes by a large amount.

Also - I think Delta is a better primary anchor for all around use. Those prices make me think they are not quoting "genuine" anchors. If it's a Danforth or Delta copy you can't expect it to perform the same way.

ti325v · 22-03-2012, 12:56

Hi sail fast:
Perhaps you did not read all of the post.
If you did you would likely find the answers to all of the questions.
For $1,500 and done, in a location where repairs to an anchor cannot be reliably done, and there is no corner shop to buy a spray can of galvanizing...THERE IS NOT A SINGLE CIRCULAR SAW ON THIS ISLAND.
Butter became available in the market 2 months ago, and they just last week got mayonnaise. Please put yourself in my place. Do it right, do it once, there is No overnight delivery here, no amazon.com. There is nothing. Please consider your questions in that context. I live in a world where the internet going down for three days in normal and acceptable. If I want to import something..ANYTHING..even a spring for one of my air compressors that is 1/2 inch long..I have to get on a plane and waste three days in customs in Saigon.
PLEASE, keep the replies in context.
Thanks
Larry

SailFastTri · 22-03-2012, 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by ti325v

Hi sail fast:
Perhaps you did not read all of the post.
If you did you would likely find the answers to all of the questions.
For $1,500 and done, in a location where repairs to an anchor cannot be reliably done, and there is no corner shop to buy a spray can of galvanizing...THERE IS NOT A SINGLE CIRCULAR SAW ON THIS ISLAND.
Butter became available in the market 2 months ago, and they just last week got mayonnaise. Please put yourself in my place. Do it right, do it once, there is No overnight delivery here, no amazon.com. There is nothing. Please consider your questions in that context. I live in a world where the internet going down for three days in normal and acceptable. If I want to import something..ANYTHING..even a spring for one of my air compressors that is 1/2 inch long..I have to get on a plane and waste three days in customs in Saigon.
PLEASE, keep the replies in context.
Thanks
Larry

You're right I didn't read the thread. Sorry, please excuse me.

ti325v · 22-03-2012, 13:31

No worries, no need to apologize, every moment I have here of internet time is precious, it has been up for 18 hours and I have not left the computer in that time.It is 3:30 a.m. here I am stressed, it is late and I have 120 emails to catch up on.
Best
Larry

xiabbo · 22-03-2012, 14:54

The Danforth is ideal in sand and will catch on any little obstruction. In my opinion tho, bigger is better. CRQ works well in anything but grass.

bobconnie · 22-03-2012, 16:13

All I can say, with 4 yrs anchoring in those waters, is be SURE you get a REAL danforth

!! thats all you need in that sandy bottom your dealing with, Nothing will hold anybetter, and a small one off the stern will solve any wind shift problems, at least it always worked for us ! just a thought but be sure what ya buy theres a bunch of knock offs out there!!