Anchor Chain to Sampson Post,- How do they do it?

[Orchidius]

Hi there,

I'm beefing up my groundtackle, and would like to invest in an all chain rode. One question I'm starting to ask myself though, is how in god's name do you tie off chain to a cleat...? I don't have a windlass and won't be getting one for my current boat, so I can't secure it on that. I do have one huge cleat on the foredeck (I think it's what you call a samson post, it goes through the deck and all the way to the keel where it is welded on).

It might technically be possible to secure it on there with an OXO, but that wouldn't do the perrrdy finish any good, and there has to be a better way...

I've considered two nylon snubber-lines (one on each side of the bow) through a rope-guide and onto the samson post like that. In that case the chain would not be secured onto anything itself though, only the snubber lines...

Would this be sufficient, even in adverse conditions? And also, how hard would it be to find the sweetspot between line-thickness and stretchiness? If I get really beefy nylon line, I would know it won't break. But I would also know it will have much less stretchiness and therefor be a poorer snubber...

Lastly, how would you attach the snubber to the chain? A chain-hook or a rolling hitch seem the most common solutions here. But I don't have much faith in most of the chain-hook designs I see, and somehow I don't like the idea of that simple a knot holding my entire boat to its anchor (maybe after some more experimenting I might get more confidence). As an alternative I considered a dyneema soft-shackle with a bigger diameter then usual.

Thoughts?

[Adventurebound]

I don't want to be a party poop, but is it necessary to have an all chain rode? Nylon rope is very strong-half inch holds nearly 6000 kg. and has elastic properties necessary for controlled anchoring. The purpose for chain is in it's abrasion resistance and is used about a boat length from the anchor.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Adventurebound

I don't want to be a party poop, but is it necessary to have an all chain rode? Nylon rope is very strong-half inch holds nearly 6000 kg. and has elastic properties necessary for controlled anchoring. The purpose for chain is in it's abrasion resistance and is used about a boat length from the anchor.

Adventure, you might want to check your facts before posting such advice. Half inch three strand nylon, depending on origin, has a breaking strength of 2200 to 2600 kg, not the nearly 6000 kg that you quote. Further, prudent folks use a safety factor of 3 or 4 or even more when sizing lines, thus a maximum working load of 500 to 1000 kg is suggested for line of that size. With a bit of age, those numbers should be reduced even more.

All chain is the nearly unanimous choice of long term cruisers, because of chafe resistance, some advantage from catenary, self stowing in chain lockers, long life and other factors. For those who insist upon using a mixed rode, most use more than "a boat length from the anchor", and must be really careful about letting the rope portion encounter the sea bed, with all its sharp and abrasive components. Most of us who have been cruising for a few years have seen boats on the beach with a length of frayed rope hanging from the bow... so sad, so unnecessary.

There have been several passionate threads on this very subject here on CF withing the past year or two. Lots of opinions presented, but the observed fact is that experienced cruisers who depend upon their ground tackle day after day choose chain. Now the argument about just what sort of chain to use erupts; there is a thread on that subject current on CF, and I suggest that you (and the OP)have a look at it.

And for the OP, trying to keep your sampson post free of blemishes might be a risky idea! While using a nylon snubber to take the normal loads is a good idea (more later) having a firm connection for the chain is important should the snubber break or come loose.
there is likely some proper hitch to use, but a couple of round turns and a half hitch around the post will hold.

If you don't want to use a chain hook (which we have done for thousands of nights at ancor) a Dyneema soft shackle is a good substitute. One of our most experienced CFers, Evans Starzinger, has been doing so for some while now, and reports good results. The stuff is extraordinary... really strong, excellent chafe resistance, fair UV resistance and not too expensive. Use a size that easily but closely fits through the chain link and it will be easily strong enough. Soft shackles are a very useful new tool for us!

Cheers,

Jim

[Adventurebound]

Thanks for the correction. The unit of measurement for the figure I quoted was "lbs" not kg. [ref. knotandrope.com]

[lancelot9898]

On a few occasions in the past I've had a problem with the rolling hitch coming undone from the chain so now I have a more elobrate means of attaching the snubber line to the rode. I do use a combination of chain and line in the rode and the length of chain will vary depending on type of anchorages you normally encounter. It is best to go with all chain and use an effective snubber system. However, for my anchoring I'm using 80 feet of 3/8 inch BBB chain and to that is spliced 5/8 inch of 3 strand nylon. That 3 strand stretches well and will act as a snubber, but to lessen the movement of the boat, I like a bridle. Here is how I attach that bridle to either the chain or to the 5/8 inch line. It takes about 10 minutes to get everything set up. The bridle is 40 feet of double braided line to which an alpine butterfly knot is attached in the middle. A large shackle in mounted into that knot. Next a 10 foot line is made into a loop using a triple fisherman knot. This loop is then tied onto either the chain or 5/8 line using a klemheist knot and finally the shackle is attached to this set up and the rode is let out more so that the boat is riding to the bidle. Google animated knots to see how these knots are tied. Hope this helps.

[colemj]

Use a length of dyneema appropriately sized for the full load with a spliced loop on one end to go around your sampson post and a chain hook or similar spliced to the other end. The total length only needs to be a foot or so (or whatever is most convenient for your layout).

When you anchor, stop the chain to the sampson post using this dyneema piece. Install a snubber also, but this dyneema is your primary boat hold on the chain.

Alternately, you can install a heavily built and reinforced chain stopper in leu of the sampson post.

Mark

[HopCar]

Re-think the windlass. Pulling chain by hand is pretty miserable, especially when it's covered in mud.

If you don't want to buy a windlass, at least get an anchor wench.

[malbert73]

Yes at least get a simple winch handle driven manual one like I have. I haul 35 lb anchor and 3/8 chain no prob... Allows me to stop every 15 feet of haul and shake chain which removes all mud and sand

[Orchidius]

Dear people,

Thanks for your input once more. I was considering something like the dyneema line idea, I'll have to look at breaking loads a bit closer then .

Please though, pretty please, stop suggesting a windlass. It's hard to explain without a picture, but I'll try anyway. Envision a classic lined boat with a narrow, pointy bow (the whole thing is only 29ft to begin with). On this pointy, narrow bow there is a big samson post, a roller furler, a cutter stay, a cradle for the anchor and soon to be "box" for the chain. Finding room for a windlass is near impossible. Even if I do find room that would mean tearing up the entire forepeak interior to fit backing plates for the windlass.

I do appreciate the input, but right now it lacks in motivation to redo all that work and then some. Perhaps after a few months of anchor-hauling manually I will change my mind, and I'll most certainly think of you guys . For now however, it's not really an option.

[michaelmrc]

my little 27fter is pretty light but my anchor setup is a 16.5 bruce attached to 50ft of 5/16 chain and then another 180 ft of 1/2 anchor rode. everyone says this is overkill but ive anchored in some pretty hefty winds and never have i dragged. sometimes overkill is exactly what you need. i dont have a windlass either but i dont have any problems hauling up the line.

[sailorchic34]

I have a sampson post too, though mine is wood with a mondo support structure below deck. It sits right where a windlass wants to be.

I just wrap 2 loops of chain around the post and even without a snubber it does not move. But my post is 6" square with rounded edges. No appreciable wear on the post after two years ish with all chain.

If you have a cross bar through the post you could just double back around that, after two loops, but I've not needed to. With a snubber, also looped about the sampson post the chain is not loaded anyway.

I use chain only in light winds (under 20 knots), though I've been caught once with unexpected winds and had to let more chain out and install a rolling hitch snubber.

[jeremiason]

A couple of things you might want to consider...

• Chains adds extra weight to your vessel.... 5/16" BBB Chain weights about 1lbs. per foot of chain to the to the bow.
• An all chain rode is nice when you are anchoring in areas likely to produce chafe or excessive strain on your anchor rode. A 29' sailboat normally won't produce that much load on the rode, so are you anchoring in coral or rock on a regular basis?
• Without a windless, it is a bitch pulling chain rode. My windless died once. I was in 25 feet of water in Central America. I had to haul 125 feet of chain rode and a 25kg anchor up. It was not fun.

As far as the Sampson post, the two previous suggestions will work. Either wrap the chain around the Post or used a short lanyard from the Sampson post to the chain. Then use a chain snubber to take the shock load. Make sure to use nice stretchy line.

I made my chain snubber with two pieces of 5/8" (Yours would be smaller) dock line. Spliced together in a "Y". The top of the "Y" attached to the two bow cleats and the other end attaches to the chain with a Wichard Chain Hook. That work great when cruising and I had no problems in winds up to 50kts.

[Cheechako]

Yes use a good snubber or two. Have an extra heavy one available for heavy weather possibility.

[Stu Jackson]

KISS

A friend wrote this in 2009 after a trip to Mexico:

The anchor. All 20kg of it with 100ft of chain. The rest of the world can debate all they like. When I pull into a place like Bodega Bay at midnight and the fog is so thick I can't see the jetty 50 feet away to make an entrance, I drop my hook in the rolling ocean swells with the surf crashing (Foster says it's like staying in a cheap Best Western beside the highway), and I sleep. And in the morning I have a windlass to pull the beast up and I wouldn't trade it for anything. (I also wouldn't add more chain - this works perfectly in 25 to 30 feet of water - you let all the chain out and you tie off nylon at the preferred scope and don't bother with snubbers and chain hooks and all that stuff...)

[HopCar]

'Please though, pretty please, stop suggesting a windlass."

Please note that I suggested that if you didn't want a windlass, you should at least get yourself an anchor wench.

I know how to spell winch in case that's what you were thinking.