Anchor Chain Hook Poll

[Lagoon4us]

When a grabber falls off a chain because of the lack of depth it is usually accompanied by a lack of wind and tide so there's no yawing or much movement anyway. In that situation there's no real concern.

Without going into a bridle length debate the bridle would have to be fairly long to unhook as on a cat the wide angle of the bridle connection to the boat usually maintains a load of sorts on the hook.

Previous to the Ultra we shackled onto the chain but we enjoy the simplicity of the Ultra hook and it seems to stay put in slack shallow anchorages i.e. 3metre minimum.

Cheers

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

I'm not wild about the idea of any chain grabber that could possible jam or bend, or requires you to reach out and release something from a chain under great strain. You want something that will do what you want it to do in the pitch black on a pitching bow.

That is so true. It should be an axiom IMO.

[Sailor g]

Originally Posted by SimonV

i use the eye grab hook. .... As long as you put a good loop after the hook there is no way it will drop off.

+1 We use the eye grab hook. It's easy to put on & fast off. We let out chain pretty quick- bring chain up, release hook, put more chain out & reset hook.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Ram

I hate to disappoint you, but there is not a cleat, nor chain or stopper made that will withstand a direct hook up to a chain rode- or the deck will rip out

I have to disagree with you on this one Ram… It all depends on build material and construction techniques.

Not many modern offshore tugs or fish draggers I know, that are not built of steel to withstand those stresses

One of the reasons I chose a well-built steel vessel for a potentially extreme area, is that all mooring bits are oversized, welded to deck with heavy stainless doubler plate and tied to bulwark box constructions. Basically I trust them in extreme conditions

For me, this video represents typical anchoring in the Philippines, when a Typhoon is nearby…. (Only warmer)

Sailboat Anchored In Storm In Straits of Magellan - YouTube

[Ram]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I have to disagree with you on this one Ram… It all depends on build material and construction techniques.

Not many modern offshore tugs or fish draggers I know, that are not built of steel to withstand those stresses

One of the reasons I chose a well-built steel vessel for a potentially extreme area, is that all mooring bits are oversized, welded to deck with heavy stainless doubler plate and tied to bulwark box constructions. Basically I trust them in extreme conditions

For me, this video represents typical anchoring in the Philippines, when a Typhoon is nearby…. (Only warmer)

Your boat being steel is likly the best, strongest that can be done in a pratical manner but~~Even the biggest tree will break in a strong storm, and the grass that bends & flexes is not damaged-

The video you posted is really not bad conditions at all, because the vessel is being sheltered by land, now if you were to change the direction of the wind 180* then that would be a different story and the seas would rise many times what’s in the video- It’s not the wind alone that is going to do the damages- it’s the combination of wind & sharp choppy seas and no shock absorbing (snubber) that’s going to cause a failure .
Do you think a small vessel or chain/shackle/cleat/deck would be safe in a prolonged blow with a direct chain to cleat type set up, if the wind clocked around to a direct hit??

The weakest link will break--- - chain links become deformed & break if there’s no give, decks become deformed and peel off—cleats break -Steel boat are very strong but nothing trumps mother nature---As you know storms clock around in a circular pattern , so it’s a real possibility that this could happen to you–as did me in the story below- sometimes when we least expect it and fast-

Once your caught out with your pants down ,your screwed.-- At least a snubber will absorbs some of the shock- I have 2-3 of them rigged and ready , one light one & 2 heavy ones with fire hose sewn on them to protect from chafing..
One other thing to think about when all the equipment/vessel /rode was new it was rated at a certain breaking point, now that it’s a few years old and has been thru some rough stuff its likely not as strong as it was when it was new-I grew up in South Florida & have been thru many Hurricanes in my 55 years and have even been onboard thru one of them , and have seen firsthand what can happen- trust me steel alone is not the answer

[Hudson Force]

Originally Posted by CaptForce

..........but then Ram might be out in more places where a secure low fetch anchorage is harder to find. There are too many other variables to compare what technique would be safe or a risk................

Well, I'm back to this,- I, too, grew up and cruise in hurricane prone areas and I've anchored out in two plus a few tropcal storms. I will admit to being blown aground in one tropical wave back when I was young and inmanure, but not in the last 38 years. I also, like Ram, set up a few snubbers in series waiting to take the load after the first one fails. This prep is needed because I can't function to tend to making up a new one in hurricane force winds on deck. Pelagic's video would be similar to my experiences even when the wind shifts 180 degrees because if a hurricane or tropical storm is capable of reaching me in three days, I'm searching for a place that gives me a suitable fetch in all directions. The success of my plan doesn't just come from the advances in storm track forecasts, but it is also a function of my draft and my crusing choices in hurricane season. Here again, I would say that Ram and Pelagic are both abolutely correct. There are too many other factors in structure and behavior to say that one plan is right.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

That's great but personally, I would not want to be dangling over the side in a bucking foredeck trying to untie a rolling hitch, if I got caught anchored in a lee shore scenario

Try hauling the knot up over the bow roller on deck to untie it. Works a treat. I agree about not dangling over the bow.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Andrew Troup

Apropos of no particular post:

The general use of snubbers on cruising yachts is a fairly recent development

I'm guessing this arises from a combination of some or all of the following: increased aversion to perceived risk and discomfort and noise, the megaphone effect of the www, the general use of light or ultra-light chain, boats with lightly built foredecks, and the fact that typical designers and builders no longer provide sampson posts or towing bitts..

I would have to disagree with that. AFAIK, snubbers have been used on yachts as long as all-chain rode has. Even with a massive foredeck and stem construction, even with heavy chain, using a snubber is not a question of "perceived" risk, etc. - it's a question of your boat's not being ripped apart in any kind of weather on all chain. Have you never had a snubber break, and felt what it's like? Snubbers are not optional, with all chain rode.

Every boat should have a stout sampson post; I regret that mine does not. But having one by no means replaces having a snubber (or three).

[Pete the Cat]

I am a chain hook person. Never had a problem with it coming loose in recent history and could not imagine trying to get one of those shackles or a rolling hitch loose in an emergency. Key to not having the chain hook come loose is to make sure you put enough slack from the bight over the side to keep the hook in place. If the bight is not in the water, it is too loose. Also, it helps to have a small enough nylon line on the snubber so that there is some spring in the line--with large stiff snubber lines the hook has no spring and will jump out. If you check the breaking strength of nylon you will see that folks seem to generally overdo nylon diameter. Yes, you need to watch for chafe, but spring is important to keep you anchor in place and the chain hook from flying out.
IMHO much of the talk about spiffy new anchors and equipment is trying to find equipment that will make up for poor technique.

[Ram]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I would have to disagree with that. AFAIK, snubbers have been used on yachts as long as all-chain rode has. Even with a massive foredeck and stem construction, even with heavy chain, using a snubber is not a question of "perceived" risk, etc. - it's a question of your boat's not being ripped apart in any kind of weather on all chain. Have you never had a snubber break, and felt what it's like? Snubbers are not optional, with all chain rode.

Every boat should have a stout sampson post; I regret that mine does not. But having one by no means replaces having a snubber (or three).

You sure got that right !!

[Tim Godber]

Folks, isnt it time to remember the original question, what system do you use, mine happens to be a chain stopper. It wasnt, "what system do you use in extremis". My hurricane experience is one only, Ivan 2004 in Grand Cayman, cat 5. If I had answered the question like some on this series, it would have been "drive the boat into mangroves and tie to everything in sight, use every anchor etc". It worked then and so it is the only way to go! Trouble is, that might be a touch extreme in everyday conditions.
And that is what the experience we all gain over time is for, no hard rules, do what is appropriate for the conditions.

[Ram]

Originally Posted by Tim Godber

Folks, isnt it time to remember the original question, what system do you use, mine happens to be a chain stopper. It wasnt, "what system do you use in extremis". My hurricane experience is one only, Ivan 2004 in Grand Cayman, cat 5. If I had answered the question like some on this series, it would have been "drive the boat into mangroves and tie to everything in sight, use every anchor etc". It worked then and so it is the only way to go! Trouble is, that might be a touch extreme in everyday conditions.
And that is what the experience we all gain over time is for, no hard rules, do what is appropriate for the conditions.

One thing I will add Tim is -the conditions I’m talking about are not hurricanes these are unforcast storms that happen occasionally very quickly & seemly out of nowhere,- A little blow turns very big very fast and winds change directions and everyone gets caught with their pants down -

This is why it’s always best to anticipate this sort of thing and be rigged and ready for the worst- - In the Mediterranean , it happens several times a year, depending where you happen to be – I was caught in a surprise storm in the fall of 2011- I had been sailing a day and a half from S.E. Turkey to Cypress with winds about 15 knots , and within an hour or two it was 40+ knots- on the nose -
From out of nowhere then after an hour or so it went back to 20 knots- there was a German guy who had anchored in a Bay at that time who was not so lucky with the sudden increase in wind/sea and change of direction, he lost his boat in the rocks- In many areas the weather forecasts are just not great So best be prepared for anything ~

[Hudson Force]

Originally Posted by Ram

................... with winds about 15 knots , and within an hour or two it was 40+ knots- on the nose -
From out of nowhere then after an hour or so it went back to 20 knots-.............

We usually get caught with these squall lines or thunderstorms with a quick blast at 40 to 60 followed by some lesser shifting turmoil for a short time and with some unpredictable direction for rarely more than an hour and more likely fifteen minutes. Here, I agree that a shock absorbing snubber is essential, but we don't have any "back-up" snubbers waiting in line. I suppose that all chain without the snubber could suffice for these short times in places where a short fetch wouldn't build up much in waves and on a robust chain stopper, but I don't see any reason to subject my gear to this kind of stress when a snubber is so easy. In addition, I'd be much more likely to keep my anchor securely holding during the short time without the shock loading. Considering everything, I'd have to stand with Ram's plan.

[JonJo]

We use an eye chain hook. We have a Witchard hook with retaining pin but I find it needs two hands to get off and is very fiddly. The eye chain hook is much easier and seems fairly fool proof. We do not see many dedicated devices, much more choice in America. Ultra have something, but I actually do not recall seeing anything else on chandlers shelves (but stand to be corrected). Big opportunity here for Mantus?

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I would have to disagree with that. AFAIK, snubbers have been used on yachts as long as all-chain rode has. Even with a massive foredeck and stem construction, even with heavy chain, using a snubber is not a question of "perceived" risk, etc. - it's a question of your boat's not being ripped apart in any kind of weather on all chain. Have you never had a snubber break, and felt what it's like? Snubbers are not optional, with all chain rode.

Every boat should have a stout sampson post; I regret that mine does not. But having one by no means replaces having a snubber (or three).

In Oz I'd say lots of people do not use snubbers, but they only anchor at weekends and seldom stray far afield. When I do see snubbers they are only being used to take the load off the winch, and are maybe 1-2m long - and thus not snubbers at all. If you asked any of these people - they would not know what you are talking about. Common documented use of snubbers is to take the load off a winch, the elasticty part seems under-recorded.

We have just replaced our snubbers, which are also our bridle (its a cat), but attached to the stern cleats and run to the bow and then joined to the common chain hook, with 10mm climbing rope. We have not used them yet in anger, that recent. Climbing rope has an elasticity of just over 30% which is the highest I have ever seen, but then maybe I've not looked hard enough. We have still retained the old snubbers - in case the climbing rope does not work. I know of people who use 4x4 snatch tape as snubbers/bridle (both on cats) - though a bit more fiddly to attach to the chain hook

For anyone interested, rock climbing walls retire their ropes (and some simply throw them out). They tend to be short, bought in big reels and cut to fit the wall, and in Sydney I'd guess you would get nothing over 20m., 15m is more common. But they can be free and a 15m piece of elastic nylon of 10mm will be adequate upto about 40' yacht (maybe bigger). I picked up 6 x 15m (free), have 2 in use, 2 for spare (or to add elasticity if we tie to a tree) and 2 ashore. Another climbing wall I approached had just sold their stock of retired ropes, so check around.

I'll report back on how they work in a few months time.