Alternative Anchor Hauling Method

[skipmac]

KISS,

I posted on a previous thread that I had the exact same experience as JRM. 32' boat with no windlass and a harbor where I couldn't get the anchor to hook. Even with the motor working so I could motor up to the anchor, after several unsuccessful attempts and lifting the anchor back on board I couldn't do it any more. And this wasn't an all chain rode and only 10' of water. I was about 30 and in excellent shape at the time.

On a 36' boat with no windlass and engine problems I tried winching the anchor in with the main sheet winch. All rope lead over the bow with a nice straight shot back to a large, 2 speed winch. Wind was blowing about 30 kts. After 30 minutes of hard cranking I managed to bring in about a third of the rode. Gave up and stayed where I was.

Yes this isn't physics but it is real world experience. Your plan is not practical or simple.

Also, your thought that an old manual windlass would be unreliable or unrepairable is not correct. A manual good manual windlass is dead simple, reliable and the few parts that may need replacing would be easy to source (standard bearings available from any bearing supplier) or maybe a new pawl which could be easily made. Keep an eye on eBay or the forums. Good manual windlasses pop up on a regular basis.

[KISS]

Just had a thought, re the tangling of the rode and the line...

It's not uncommon for people to put out multiple anchors at once.

How do they prevent them from tangling?

[KISS]

Originally Posted by skipmac

KISS,

I posted on a previous thread that I had the exact same experience as JRM. 32' boat with no windlass and a harbor where I couldn't get the anchor to hook. Even with the motor working so I could motor up to the anchor, after several unsuccessful attempts and lifting the anchor back on board I couldn't do it any more. And this wasn't an all chain rode and only 10' of water. I was about 30 and in excellent shape at the time.

On a 36' boat with no windlass and engine problems I tried winching the anchor in with the main sheet winch. All rope lead over the bow with a nice straight shot back to a large, 2 speed winch. Wind was blowing about 30 kts. After 30 minutes of hard cranking I managed to bring in about a third of the rode. Gave up and stayed where I was.

I'm not doubting at all that this is a real problem.

What I don't understand is how getting a windlass solves the problem. If you don't have enough pull with a manual halyard winch, I don't see how the problem could be solved by getting a manual windlass - since the winches have much higher mechanical advantage than the windlasses.

Unless you mean you got an electric windlass?

[jongleur]

Simpson Lawrence Oil Bath Windlass 3 8" Chain Hand Crank Windlass | eBay

Pretty much bulletproof. Ya have 2 days to bid on this.

[KISS]

Originally Posted by jongleur

Simpson Lawrence Oil Bath Windlass 3 8" Chain Hand Crank Windlass | eBay

Pretty much bulletproof. Ya have 2 days to bid on this.

Yep, there are great old models out there.

But does it work?

For how long?

Spares?

As I've been saying, going that route is a possibility. But I want to exhaust the other possibilities first.

Again, if there were several good models still in production, we wouldn't be having this discussion - I'd just get one of those. But there aren't, so we are.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by KISS

I'm not doubting at all that this is a real problem.

What I don't understand is how getting a windlass solves the problem. If you don't have enough pull with a manual halyard winch, I don't see how the problem could be solved by getting a manual windlass - since the winches have much higher mechanical advantage than the windlasses.

Unless you mean you got an electric windlass?

1. Windlass designed specifically for the job. Always use the right tool for the job. You can drive a nail with a wrench but a hammer will do it faster, easier and better. Same principal here.
2. For a winch to have similar power to a windlass it will be much slower than a real anchor windlass. Like a block and tackle, you trade speed for power.
3. The anchor windlass can be mounted on the bow where it's needed avoiding the additional complication of running the anchor rode across the boat.
4. Windlass will directly handle the chain, further simplifying the process.

Probably a lot more reasons but let me repeat something that has been said to you several times. You have gotten answers from many, very experienced sailors. I think you have no idea the tens of thousands of miles at sea, years on boats and the level of expertise behind the people that are responding to your questions. Without exception they are recommending against your anchor idea (and several other ideas you have posed on another thread) and many have given good reasons. Don't you think it would make sense to listen to the advise you're getting?

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by KISS

Yep, there are great old models out there.

But does it work?

For how long?

Spares?

As I've been saying, going that route is a possibility. But I want to exhaust the other possibilities first.

Again, if there were several good models still in production, we wouldn't be having this discussion - I'd just get one of those. But there aren't, so we are.

I have a 30 year old electric windlass. Almost identical to a manual model with a motor and a couple of extra gears added. The gears will never wear out and never break. The only maintenance is replacing bearings which can be purchased standard. The main parts that might break are pawls and a few little bits that can be made cheaply by any machine shop.

[KISS]

Originally Posted by skipmac

I have a 30 year old electric windlass. Almost identical to a manual model with a motor and a couple of extra gears added. The gears will never wear out and never break. The only maintenance is replacing bearings which can be purchased standard. The main parts that might break are pawls and a few little bits that can be made cheaply by any machine shop.

How does it work in manual mode?

As well as a fully manual windlass?

[contrail]

For years, I cruised and lived aboard a 33 foot monohull, using a 33 lb. Bruce (which, by the way, never dragged even once, including during Hurricane Marty in the Sea of Cortez, but that's another discussion!). I had 300 feet of chain, which, since it was schedule 40 Hi Test, at 1/4 inch was a size down from the normal 5/16. It weighed .75 pounds per foot rather than the Proof Coil's 1 pound. I usually anchored in 30 plus feet, and on occasion anchored in 60 odd feet. I had no windlass, but I fabricated a very functional pawl for the roller, and that was the key. I would open the anchor locker, sit with my butt on the aft edge and have my feet against the pulpit stanchions, and then just rock back and forth. Each "rock" brought up about two feet of chain with relatively little effort, and more quickly than my neighbors who had manual windlasses. I used gloves and was sufficiently on the move that I did not have barnacles on my chain. I did this in quite a bit of wind, but since I was sitting down, rather than breaking my back lifting the chain, and since I had a pawl, I could stop and rest in the highly unusual circumstance that it was necessary. If there was a swell running, so much the better, since I could easily pull in a few feet of chain as the boat sank into the trough, and then when I went up on the next wave, the chain would pull me forward. Before I had the pawl, this sometimes felt like it would pull my arms out of my shoulders, but with the pawl it was a piece of cake. Before, I had used the tedious but effective system of chain hooks to winches, but after that I had no need. On a handful of occasions, there was so much wind that I did use the motor to inch forward, and had my autopilot remote up forward with me. The only question here is how to do this without a motor, and I would agree with the post that said to sail the anchor out. For those who haven't done this, you sail off on one tack until the chain snubs (on the pawl), at which point the boat tacks itself and the chain comes up quite easily on the way back to the anchor. You then go past until the chain snubs itself again, and the boat tacks back, and so forth. There is also another method that I never have used, but is apparently used by fishermen. I did have a friend (an ex-fisherman) who used to use it all the time. It consisted of an SS ring, maybe a foot in diameter, attached by a piece of line, to a large float/buoy/fender. The chain passed through the center of the ring. When it was time to weigh anchor, the ring and the float were tossed overboard. As the boat sails or motors forward, the chain hangs off one side and aft, as the boat passes the anchor. The ring slips down the chain, due to the forward motion through the water and eventually its buoyancy breaks the anchor free, lifts it, and then floats it while the whole thing is pulled in. Pretty simple. West used to sell the ring and float....don't know if they still do. Anyway, there is more than one way to skin the cat and what I did worked perfectly; I never missed having a windlass, and, on my current 45 foot cat with electric windlass, still miss the simplicity.

I am pretty fit, but not that big, and the exercise was excellent. Now and again I would go through the whole drill, stopping short of actually raising the anchor, just for exercise.

However, running that extra line down to the anchor does sound needlessly complicated and fraught with potential problems. The answer lies in the pawl and sitting down to raise the anchor.

Cheers,
tim

[KISS]

Originally Posted by contrail

For years, I cruised and lived aboard a 33 foot monohull, using a 33 lb. Bruce (which, by the way, never dragged even once, including during Hurricane Marty in the Sea of Cortez, but that's another discussion!). I had 300 feet of chain, which, since it was schedule 40 Hi Test, at 1/4 inch was a size down from the normal 5/16. It weighed .75 pounds per foot rather than the Proof Coil's 1 pound. I usually anchored in 30 plus feet, and on occasion anchored in 60 odd feet. I had no windlass, but I fabricated a very functional pawl for the roller, and that was the key. I would open the anchor locker, sit with my butt on the aft edge and have my feet against the pulpit stanchions, and then just rock back and forth. Each "rock" brought up about two feet of chain with relatively little effort, and more quickly than my neighbors who had manual windlasses. I used gloves and was sufficiently on the move that I did not have barnacles on my chain. I did this in quite a bit of wind, but since I was sitting down, rather than breaking my back lifting the chain, and since I had a pawl, I could stop and rest in the highly unusual circumstance that it was necessary. If there was a swell running, so much the better, since I could easily pull in a few feet of chain as the boat sank into the trough, and then when I went up on the next wave, the chain would pull me forward. Before I had the pawl, this sometimes felt like it would pull my arms out of my shoulders, but with the pawl it was a piece of cake. Before, I had used the tedious but effective system of chain hooks to winches, but after that I had no need. On a handful of occasions, there was so much wind that I did use the motor to inch forward, and had my autopilot remote up forward with me. The only question here is how to do this without a motor, and I would agree with the post that said to sail the anchor out. For those who haven't done this, you sail off on one tack until the chain snubs (on the pawl), at which point the boat tacks itself and the chain comes up quite easily on the way back to the anchor. You then go past until the chain snubs itself again, and the boat tacks back, and so forth. There is also another method that I never have used, but is apparently used by fishermen. I did have a friend (an ex-fisherman) who used to use it all the time. It consisted of an SS ring, maybe a foot in diameter, attached by a piece of line, to a large float/buoy/fender. The chain passed through the center of the ring. When it was time to weigh anchor, the ring and the float were tossed overboard. As the boat sails or motors forward, the chain hangs off one side and aft, as the boat passes the anchor. The ring slips down the chain, due to the forward motion through the water and eventually its buoyancy breaks the anchor free, lifts it, and then floats it while the whole thing is pulled in. Pretty simple. West used to sell the ring and float....don't know if they still do. Anyway, there is more than one way to skin the cat and what I did worked perfectly; I never missed having a windlass, and, on my current 45 foot cat with electric windlass, still miss the simplicity.

I am pretty fit, but not that big, and the exercise was excellent. Now and again I would go through the whole drill, stopping short of actually raising the anchor, just for exercise.

However, running that extra line down to the anchor does sound needlessly complicated and fraught with potential problems. The answer lies in the pawl and sitting down to raise the anchor.

Cheers,
tim

That's great contrail, thanks a lot.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by KISS

Just had a thought, re the tangling of the rode and the line...

It's not uncommon for people to put out multiple anchors at once.

How do they prevent them from tangling?

Actually it is uncommon - mainly because of all the real world difficulties in setting them - and one has to go to a lot of effort to prevent both tangling and chafe.

But hey, if you aren't convinced by the internet, go out and try yourself.

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by KISS

Suppose I have an all chain rode.

And suppose I don't want to have a windlass: electric or manual.

I have no windlass and all chain.

And suppose I can raise my anchor by hand IF there's no current/wind working against me, and IF the anchor is not too hard set.

And suppose I have no motor: so I can't motor up on the anchor.

I have no motor

How do I raise the anchor in less than ideal conditions?

If there are swells:
Pull the chain when the bow is lowering, and lock it when the bow is raising.

If there is wind:
raise main sail, and sheet close, the boat will tack over the anchor as you raise it.

If there is no wind:
Get the boat moving by pulling the chain. Once vertical, lock, and the boat momentum breaks the anchor out.

If there is a strong current with no waves or wind, so you cannot get enough momentum in the boat to break the anchor out.. pull until the chain is vertical. Now lock the chain, and halfway between the roller and where the chain is locked, pull the chain straight up to create a huge a mount of leverage which breaks the anchor out.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by KISS

I'm not doubting at all that this is a real problem.

What I don't understand is how getting a windlass solves the problem. If you don't have enough pull with a manual halyard winch, I don't see how the problem could be solved by getting a manual windlass - since the winches have much higher mechanical advantage than the windlasses.

Unless you mean you got an electric windlass?

Re-read Jim's post, he has a lifetime of experience in both anchoring (post working( and physics (pre-full-time cruising).

The mechanical advantage of a single speed halyard winch is purely dependant of the diameter of the drum and the length of the winch handle less frictional loses - it has nothing to do with the model number - that is usually a proposed mechanical advantage suggest by the manufacturer for marketing purposes. FWIW, this info was given to me by a well know winch manufacturer.

The mechanical advantage of an windlass is dependant on gear ratios (on some models) and lever sizes & drum diameter on all models.

There is simply no way I would subject my halyard winch to anchor retrieval duties except in an emergency. One snatch load due to wave or wind action could see it flying off the mast mount or pulling the mast out of column with a resulting bent or more likely broken mast.

YMMV.

[KISS]

Originally Posted by boat_alexandra

I have no windlass and all chain.

I have no motor


If there are swells:
Pull the chain when the bow is lowering, and lock it when the bow is raising.

If there is wind:
raise main sail, and sheet close, the boat will tack over the anchor as you raise it.

If there is no wind:
Get the boat moving by pulling the chain. Once vertical, lock, and the boat momentum breaks the anchor out.

If there is a strong current with no waves or wind, so you cannot get enough momentum in the boat to break the anchor out.. pull until the chain is vertical. Now lock the chain, and halfway between the roller and where the chain is locked, pull the chain straight up to create a huge a mount of leverage which breaks the anchor out.

That's KISS. I like it.

I'm starting to revert to my previous view that a winch/windlass is unnecessary.

[KISS]

Originally Posted by Wotname

The mechanical advantage of a single speed halyard winch is purely dependant of the diameter of the drum and the length of the winch handle less frictional loses....The mechanical advantage of an windlass is dependant on gear ratios (on some models) and lever sizes & drum diameter on all models.

I understand how MA works.

it has nothing to do with the model number

Actually it does, because they number the models based on the MA at the lowest speed.

that is usually a proposed mechanical advantage suggest by the manufacturer for marketing purposes.

FWIW, this info was given to me by a well know winch manufacturer.

The instruction manuals give the MA, which is the same as the model number. If they're outright lying about the MA of their winches, I'd be pretty surprised. Somebody could sue the pants off them for fraudulent adverting. I could see if they were ignoring friction or assuming "laboratory conditions" etc, but you're telling me the MA figures cited by the company are pure fantasy? Pulled out of thin air? Sorry, I don't buy that.

There is simply no way I would subject my halyard winch to anchor retrieval duties except in an emergency. One snatch load due to wave or wind action could see it flying off the mast mount or pulling the mast out of column with a resulting bent or more likely broken mast.

As I said earlier, I wouldn't be using an existing winch. I'd be installing one especially for the purpose of hauling the anchor, bolted to a steel plate welded to the hull at the bow: just like I would do with a windlass.

And, by the factory specs (which I do not believe are fictional), the winches are much stronger (higher WLL) than the windlasses. And both have to deal with shock loads.