Alternative Anchor Hauling Method

[KISS]

Originally Posted by MBWhite

It is not how old a person is when they start cruising, it is how they go about doing it. You claim to want to keep things simple and apparently fail to realize that there is always a balance between mechanical simplicity and the corresponding increase of the mental and physical capabilities of the person involved in the situation. It appears that you post impractical scenarios that jump out as idiotic to anyone who has actual experience, and instead of learning from them you decide to be argumentative.

Unless you have no intention of ever actually getting on a boat and are just trolling here because you are bored, the best thing for you to do is buy a small sub-20 foot boat and just get your ass out on the water for a couple of seasons, and then decide if your vision of the ultimate KISS boat is still a 50' steel hull with no motor, a 90 pound anchor, 500 feet of chain in the bilge and no anchor windlass.....

For a boat to look for right now, I'd suggest a West Wight Potter, either 15 or 19. Otherwise you can keep going the route you are on now and for that boat I will leave you with a pearl of wisdom quote by the very gifted and prolific boat designer Phil Bolger:

“Imaginary boats are almost as much fun as real ones, and much cheaper for all concerned.”

Lots of patronizing, no useful information.

[onestepcsy37]

Originally Posted by MBWhite

A pearl of wisdom by the very gifted and prolific boat designer Phil Bolger:

“Imaginary boats are almost as much fun as real ones, and much cheaper for all concerned.”

A Classic! I'm not too crazy about his designs, having once built one, but he apparently knew a "just looking" when he saw one!

[gjordan]

KISS, you are a glutton for punishment. You stick doggedly to your internet learned ideas (not sure what part of the internet?) and refuse to learn from people with many thousands of miles under their keels. You have BADLY MISTAKEN SIMPLE FOR EASY AND RELIABLE. Almost all of your ideas will make for a boat that will be difficult (not simple or easy) to cruise with. If you really want to go cruising, as opposed to proving you are the smartest person on the water, then you need to reread all of the answers to your posts. Most are reasonable answers based on experience. When simple makes your life difficult, then you have hit the second S in your name. _______Grant.

[KISS]

Originally Posted by gjordan

KISS, you are a glutton for punishment. You stick doggedly to your internet learned ideas (not sure what part of the internet?) and refuse to learn from people with many thousands of miles under their keels.

If people can explain why my proposals won't work, I'll gladly change my mind.

If people just state that my proposals won't work, and refuse to explain why, get defensive, and accuse me of being too argumentative, I can only assume they have no clue what they're talking about.

In life, in general, people who know something are able to explain it; while people who refuse to explain alleged knowledge are poseurs - goes double io the internet, I might add. Hell, for all I know, half the people commenting here don't even really have a boat! So I'm not going to just take their word for things; I need explanations that jive with other known facts.

[JRM]

Originally Posted by KISS

If people can explain why my proposals won't work, I'll gladly change my mind.

If people just state that my proposals won't work, and refuse to explain why, get defensive, and accuse me of being too argumentative, I can only assume they have no clue what they're talking about.

In life, in general, people who know something are able to explain it; while people who refuse to explain alleged knowledge are poseurs - goes double io the internet, I might add. Hell, for all I know, half the people commenting here don't even really have a boat! So I'm not going to just take their word for things; I need explanations that jive with other known facts.

So basically, unless I explain the physics and physiology of why I got tired when repeatedly trying to get our 33 lbs anchor and 100' of chain to bite, those experiences are (according to you) invalid. Our first boat was a 11,000 lbs. Catalina 30, with no windlass. It was usually no problem for me to muscle up the ground tackle, even in windy conditions. We just used the engine.

However, a few times I just couldn't get the anchor to set. That required pulling it back up, repositioning, and trying again. Sometimes it might take half a dozen tries to find the good ground in a cove. You get bummed on try two, angry on try three, furious on try four, dejected on try 5, and your arms and back are so tired on try 6 that you swear to part ways with the boat the second you arrive back at the slip, which will be soon because you can't bear the thought of rattling that freaking chain down one more time.

I may be a poseur, but I'll be posing with my Lighthouse windlass now thank you very much.

Oh, and for the record, it doesn't take advanced knowledge of fluid mechanics to be a master plummer. It takes the skill of a craftsman. Nor a summary understanding of exothermic vs. endothermic curing reactions to trowel out a nice finish in concrete. I think you're a "soft hands" kind of person, which is why you have such a disconnect when tradesmen try and help you out.

Sometimes, there just is no substitute for experience. That's why I got off the couch and bought a boat. Then figured out how much I thought I knew that turned out not to be true, and bought boat number two. And I learn stuff every day. As my boss likes to say, "Lessons in humility are just around the corner."

JRM



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Kenomac]

We had to haul up our anchor one time using a rope and manual primary winch when all electronics failed on the boat following an electrical fire.

It took over 90 minutes.... 'nuff said.

Let me be frank... your anchor idea is completely silly, but not quite as silly as your five gallon s%@t bucket with the toilet seat that you proposed on a separate thread.

You obviously don't even have a clue as to how much of a potential hazard a "floating anchor line" would pose to other boaters in a calm anchorage.

Have you ever been on a boat?

[KISS]

I hear your story JRM, and it's useful.

My point is: I cannot just accept everyone's personal experience as definitive because...everyone has different personal experiences! Here you're telling me, in essence, that I won't be able to set an anchor without a beefy electrical windlass. But I could find dozens of posts from other sailors on this very forum who say the exact opposite. Whose advice am I to follow?

What some are calling argumentativeness on my part is an attempt to find out WHY they had the experiences they did - what's the causation behind them? WHY did you have trouble setting your anchor manually. WHY did getting your new windlass fix the problem. Is that the only way to solve the problem? Etc.

So, back to the point: what are the specs on your lighthouse winch? I would like to see how they compare to other winches. Also, was the problem before you got your winch (a) that it didn't have enough pulling force to set the anchor, or (b) that you got too tired trying to pull it. In other words, is the key here a high mechanical advantage, or the fact that it's electrical? Also, did you ever try setting an anchor by sail (e.g. sail in, drop anchor, and let the momentum of the boat set the anchor)? I've read about people doing this successfully.

[KISS]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

We had to haul up our anchor one time using a rope and manual primary winch when all electronics failed on the boat following an electrical fire.

It took over 90 minutes.... 'nuff said.

You mean that you hooked a line to the chain, pulled it up a bit, then re-hooked it further down the chain, pulled it up a bit, and so forth? No doubt that takes a long time.

But did you ever try what I suggested in the OP?

[estarzinger]

There have been two standard proven approaches for this general problem:

One: is to put a (one-way) 'pawl' in the chain retrieval path. That makes hauling the chain by hand much much easier (because you don't have to hold the chain load between pulls), and they are easy/cheap to fabricate and nothing to break.

Two: is to use the port and starboard genoa winches with puller lines/hooks to the bow. This works better with two people than singlehanded, but given the genoa winches are usually generously sized makes chain/anchor retrieval pretty easy in almost any conditions.

[KISS]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

There have been two standard proven approaches for this general problem:

One: is to put a (one-way) 'pawl' in the chain retrieval path. That makes hauling the chain by hand much much easier (because you don't have to hold the chain load between pulls), and they are easy/cheap to fabricate and nothing to break.

Two: is to use the port and starboard genoa winches with puller lines/hooks to the bow. This works better with two people than singlehanded, but given the genoa winches are usually generously sized makes chain/anchor retrieval pretty easy in almost any conditions.

Q about method #2:

You want to get the winch back as far as possible, so as to maximize the amount of rode you can pull up with each cycle, and so minimize the number of cycles, right? But if you put the winch somewhere far aft, how do you lead the chain back there? I mean, you don't want to it flopping around and scraping up the deck. Do you use a system of rollers or what?

[JRM]

Originally Posted by KISS

I hear your story JRM, and it's useful.

My point is: I cannot just accept everyone's personal experience as definitive because...everyone has different personal experiences! Here you're telling me, in essence, that I won't be able to set an anchor without a beefy electrical windlass. But I could find dozens of posts from other sailors on this very forum who say the exact opposite. Whose advice am I to follow?

No, I'm not. I'm not saying anything of the kind. I'm saying that life is much better, and safer, and all around less frustrating with one. Better living through physics. You can set any anchor without a windlass, just chuck it over the side and pray. What I'm telling you is that, in my VERY limited experience, anchoring sans windlass is nowhere near as pleasant as anchoring with one. I'm not in this to go make myself miserable. I have Internet forums for that.

Originally Posted by KISS

What some are calling argumentativeness on my part is an attempt to find out WHY they had the experiences they did - what's the causation behind them? WHY did you have trouble setting your anchor manually. WHY did getting your new windlass fix the problem. Is that the only way to solve the problem? Etc.

Why did I have the experiences I did? Because I didn't have a windlass. Because sometimes the bottom isn't exactly as described by the chart, or there's weed, or rocks, or fishing net. Because, unlike in the book, sometimes stuff just doesn't happen like it should. Because the forecast that said 5-10 turned out to be 25-30. Because I live in the messy real world and not some fantasy land. Because it's soooooo much easier to step on a switch than grunt and sweat. And faster. And most importantly, the wife likes it better.

Originally Posted by KISS

So, back to the point: what are the specs on your lighthouse winch? I would like to see how they compare to other winches. Also, was the problem before you got your winch (a) that it didn't have enough pulling force to set the anchor, or (b) that you got too tired trying to pull it. In other words, is the key here a high mechanical advantage, or the fact that it's electrical? Also, did you ever try setting an anchor by sail (e.g. sail in, drop anchor, and let the momentum of the boat set the anchor)? I've read about people doing this successfully.

I don't have the specs here with me. Google is your friend. The reason it's so expensive is the whole thing is stainless. It's a beast. It came with the boat. The PO who set it up was ten times smarter and a thousand times more experienced than I am. My attitude is that I'd rather benefit from the mistakes of those before me, to leverage their experience. I make enough of my own mistakes without purposefully ignoring the obvious.

Good luck.

JRM

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by KISS

Q about method #2:

You want to get the winch back as far as possible, so as to maximize the amount of rode you can pull up with each cycle, and so minimize the number of cycles, right? But if you put the winch somewhere far aft, how do you lead the chain back there? I mean, you don't want to it flopping around and scraping up the deck. Do you use a system of rollers or what?

everyone I have ever seen using this method - it just scrapes the deck.

I have seen plastic (UHMW) and stainless strips down on deck along the path.

You could set up a rope lead off the deck, perhaps hanging a snatch block from the rig, to pull the chain just a bit up off the deck. But I have never seen it done. You would need to experiment.

There is one other 'old school' approach, which is a simply 'one link at a time lever winch' - eg it is a lever which can drive the pawl one link per stroke - no gears or anything fancy. Pretty easy to fabricate, nothing to break . . . .but real slow.

By the way . . . IMHO the best manual windless is the sea-tiger 555. They last forever, work very well, and you can get replacement parts fabricated at any island machine shop. I heard that someone had recently started making them new again.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by KISS

If it's dragging, then I don't have to worry about wind force on the boat, or anchor holing power; I'm just working against the weight of the tackle. Right?





You mean without motoring up on the anchor?

If your JIB sheet winch can't pull up your boat to the anchor in windy conditions, does that mean a manual windlass couldn't either? What about an electric windlass?

If so, then an engine-less boat simply cannot haul anchor in these conditions?

Wrong. What almost ANY good anchoring book, as well as real world experience, will tell you is that sometimes boats start sliding sideways when the anchor drags. As it drags, it is pulling harder: the anchor is trying to stay where it is, but the boat's moving away from it. Sure, you could call it equilibrium in motion, too, couldn't you? By this time the rode, whatever it is, is BAR TIGHT. Which is NOT conducive to weighing the anchor. Even if you have a windlass, electrical windlass and/or motor.

Without sailing up on the anchor, yup, pretty much.

Look, in the past four pages, you continue to disagree with folks, and then ask why they can't explain "why" to you.

They are not paid or volunteering to do this, they are trying to SHARE their experiences. Sometimes experience trumps physics.

If you want to know why, buy a bloody book about it. Please. Or do further internet research. Or go out on a boat and try anchoring.

But don't get mad at the respondents if they don't give you what you're looking for.

It's not fair, or polite to them. They are really trying to help you, and in most cases if a handful of folks are trying to point out to you that it's YOU who are not behaving, perhaps you should reconsider your approach.

I learned to anchor on a Catalina 22 on a lake. Winds would come up at 1 p.m. every afternoon. We had an outboard engine. It was always much easier to weigh anchor before the wind came up.

Same with my other boats, a 25 outboard and for the past 16 years a 34 inboard diesel. No windlass on any of them.

I've anchored and left under sail, too.

You keep asking: Why? Because it is EASIER on YOU and your GEAR, whatever it may be.

Physics? I'd go read a book.

Reality - when it's windy with no engine, it's a bitch. That's why.

[KISS]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Without sailing up on the anchor, yup, pretty much.

If the only way to haul anchor in these conditions is to sail/motor up on it, if no winch will do the job, then what different does it make (for these conditions) whether I have a winch or not?

That is the quesiton at hand...to winch...or not to winch

[KISS]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

everyone I have ever seen using this method - it just scrapes the deck.

I have seen plastic (UHMW) and stainless strips down on deck along the path.

You could set up a rope lead off the deck, perhaps hanging a snatch block from the rig, to pull the chain just a bit up off the deck. But I have never seen it done. You would need to experiment.

There is one other 'old school' approach, which is a simply 'one link at a time lever winch' - eg it is a lever which can drive the pawl one link per stroke - no gears or anything fancy. Pretty easy to fabricate, nothing to break . . . .but real slow.

By the way . . . IMHO the best manual windless is the sea-tiger 555. They last forever, work very well, and you can get replacement parts fabricated at any island machine shop. I heard that someone had recently started making them new again.

A lot to chew on there, thanks