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Old 05-10-2014, 04:54   #91
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Re: Alternative Anchor Hauling Method

Now I pull the chain rode up by hand, through a pawl style chain stopper. The weight I'm pulling is (at the start: when its heaviest) equal to the weight of the chain rode between the surface and the bottom: e.g. if the chain is .77lbs/foot and I'm anchored in 100', the total weight I'm pulling is 77lbs. I'm not pulling the anchor (because it's hanging on the secured line), and the rode is loose, so I'm not working against any wind or current.

Can you think of any reason why that wouldn't work?


Very good question.
I had is issue of the windlass not working whislt at anchor in the Tobago Kays between 2 islands and facing the wind of course.
Hopefully I did use, as I always do, a tripping line (TL).
It is very similar to your concept but as the line goes directly from the anchor to the buoy above there is no risk of it being twisted around the chain or anything else.
We just motored to the TL buoy, brought the chain back on board by hand and raised the anchor using the TL line.
It works if you have an engine but if you don't and have a heavy boat with the wind bowing from the bow it might be a bit more challenging to reach the TL buoy.
That's the reason why the line used for the TL is strong enough that we can tie a longer one to it and haul the boat using a winch (electrical or not) and solve the problem.

I hope it helps

Marc on SY Hanami II.
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Old 05-10-2014, 06:06   #92
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Re: Alternative Anchor Hauling Method

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Originally Posted by Steve Bean View Post
Sorry I just got here, but I have read the entire thread. I'm surprised nobody has brought up Archimedes's Principle. This states that the buoyancy (upward force) exerted on an object in water (or any fluid) is equal to the weight of the fluid displaced. Applied to the anchoring situation, this means that raising the anchor and rode once the rode is vertical will be easier than raising the same anchor and rode in air. It means our anchors and chains are trying to float. It makes my back feel so much better!
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Old 05-10-2014, 06:19   #93
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Re: Alternative Anchor Hauling Method

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Sorry I just got here, but I have read the entire thread. I'm surprised nobody has brought up Archimedes's Principle. This states that the buoyancy (upward force) exerted on an object in water (or any fluid) is equal to the weight of the fluid displaced. Applied to the anchoring situation, this means that raising the anchor and rode once the rode is vertical will be easier than raising the same anchor and rode in air. It means our anchors and chains are trying to float. It makes my back feel so much better!
YES!!!

I noticed this very thing last time I was cruising the Superheated Plutonium Sea... !

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Mate, I really hope that you get out and go cruising someday. It is a great life, and it is one that tends to bring all of us to our knees at times. A couple of those experiences will do you and your attitude a lot of good. Until then, you can just KISS... whatever.

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Old 05-10-2014, 06:41   #94
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Re: Alternative Anchor Hauling Method

I've just read this thread through, and all I have to say (that hasn't been said by others) is that I hope KISS never gets out on the water to try his plan. He would be a hazard to himself (and others in a populated anchorage) and his further learning by experience would likely lead to property damage at the very least.

A few years ago I watched a sailor try to anchor under sail in a crowded anchorage. He got the hook down, but after heading-up his boat bore away under sail at anchor and T-boned another boat nearby. (He was single-handed and couldn't handle anchor rode and sail controls and tiller all at the same time, as events unfolded too quickly.) The other boat was a "gold-plater" with a high finish level, probably worth well over $1M, and I estimate the damage was well into the tens of thousands for repair. That jackass who was single-handing was uninsured, of course. He would have saved himself and others around him $$$ by anchoring under power (with sails dropped) in that crowded anchorage, and by having adequate anchor handling equipment prepared for use. He could have paid for all the equipment he "couldn't afford" if he had not had the unfortunate experience of having to face a civil proceeding or five-figure $ settlement.

Recently, a single-hander tried to pick up a mooring next to the one I was occupying, but overshot and caught the mooring between his keel and rudder... then as his boat bore-off the wind broadside it landed against my bow anchor (which he held a fender against -- because it would have ground against his topsides as the wind and waves added motion and pressure). Fortunately I was aboard and was able to drop my mooring within minutes, because otherwise he would have stayed stuck while holding that fender (like the proverbial Dutch boy with his finger in the dyke). Who knows how long that situation would have lasted?

KISS -- The reason the vast majority of cruising boats (especially single-handers) are equipped with electric windlass is because it SIMPLIFIES things, and adds safety by adding efficiency. They are also reliable. Most boats can be anchored by hand but if they're cruising boats over about 30-feet (especially if they use all-chain and/or anchor in deep water) have a windlass and/or have mixed rode (with limited chain length usually less than 50 feet). Or, they have lighter boats with lighter ground tackle than you envision.

When the wind and current are up, things happen more quickly and if you start drifting or dragging you have less time before reaching nearby boats/hazards or a lee shore.
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Old 05-10-2014, 07:18   #95
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Re: Alternative Anchor Hauling Method

I have to admit I haven't read through every post and try very hard to not get involved in anchoring threads. But I can't resist this one. This is by NO means simplifying anything as others have said. In the real world, this is probably the worst idea I think I have ever heard. Everyone else has brought up all of the problems with this. There are just a couple of things not considered. Think about the weight of a chain laying on the bottom in the mud, you will be anchoring a lot in mud, with 50 feet trailing behind the boat TWICE. That chain has settled in the mud. You're not pulling straight up and baring only the weight of the chain. You're pulling the chain sideways after it has buried itself in the muck. The force to pull the chain straight up from the mud is considerably less than trying to pull it sideways through the mud for 100 feet and then pick it up. The entire process is an exercise if futility, but if that's your plan, go for it and come back to let us know how it works out. It sounds like you're really looking for confirmation rather than advise. Chuck
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Old 05-10-2014, 07:23   #96
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Re: Alternative Anchor Hauling Method

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post

Your definitely NOT KISS...

+1

I don't get it KISS. You seem intent on making things as difficult and as complicated as possible when it comes to anchoring. Not sure which books you've read, but I have a good place for them: Over The Side!

There's nothing simpler than the right sized quality anchor, all-chain rode, and a good manual windlass. All can be had for a cheap price if you look on the used market.

Anchoring is not where you should be reinventing the wheel. Effective anchoring is key to frugal living. Go with a tried and tested system that actually works.


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Old 05-10-2014, 07:39   #97
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Re: Alternative Anchor Hauling Method

Anyone wondering what it is going to end up looking like should view this.

Thankfully with bilge keels I have a draft that can sail on wet grass so will be safely tucked up in shallow water watching the entertainment with a G&T.

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Old 05-10-2014, 11:50   #98
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Re: Alternative Anchor Hauling Method

I'll just say again, for the benefit of people who post without reading the thread (), I've abandoned this idea because of the problem of the retrieval line chafing/tangling. But if you want to continue to discuss issues raised in the thread, that's fine by me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bean View Post
Sorry I just got here, but I have read the entire thread. I'm surprised nobody has brought up Archimedes's Principle. This states that the buoyancy (upward force) exerted on an object in water (or any fluid) is equal to the weight of the fluid displaced. Applied to the anchoring situation, this means that raising the anchor and rode once the rode is vertical will be easier than raising the same anchor and rode in air. It means our anchors and chains are trying to float. It makes my back feel so much better!
I realize you're joking, but it's actually not a trivial amount of bouyancy: about 13lbs buoyancy for every 100lbs of steel chain/anchor you have in the water. In other words, your all-steel rode actually weighs about 13% less in water than you think it does. So, for example, when hauling my 88lbs anchor vertically, it only feels like 76lbs.

100lbs of steel at a density of 7.85grams/cm3 displaces 1.52 gallons.

Salt water typically weighs about 8.5lbs per gallon.

8.5 x 1.52 = 12.92lbs
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Old 05-10-2014, 11:50   #99
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Re: Alternative Anchor Hauling Method

Quote:
Originally Posted by KISS View Post
Suppose I have an all chain rode.

And suppose I don't want to have a windlass: electric or manual.

And suppose I can raise my anchor by hand IF there's no current/wind working against me, and IF the anchor is not too hard set.

And suppose I have no motor: so I can't motor up on the anchor.

How do I raise the anchor in less than ideal conditions?

Here's what I came up with:

Before dropping the anchor, hook a line to the chain a few feet from the anchor. Run the line out with the chain rode, plus a few feet extra: e.g. if the rode is 100', the line could be 105'. This would keep the whole load on the chain rode; the line would be under no strain and at little risk of chafe either. Yet it would follow the rode closely; it won't be drifting around the anchorage causing mischief.

When I want to raise the anchor, I put the line through a halyard winch and pull it in. After a while, I'm going to be on top of the anchor - with the rode and the parallel line running vertical from anchor to bow. I keep pulling, the anchor comes loose, and I raise it to the surface; then tie off the line.

At this point, the anchor is hanging at the surface on the line, and the chain rode is hanging in a U-shape: one end at the anchor, the other at the bow, the middle of the U on the bottom.

Now I pull the chain rode up by hand, through a pawl style chain stopper. The weight I'm pulling is (at the start: when its heaviest) equal to the weight of the chain rode between the surface and the bottom: e.g. if the chain is .77lbs/foot and I'm anchored in 100', the total weight I'm pulling is 77lbs. I'm not pulling the anchor (because it's hanging on the secured line), and the rode is loose, so I'm not working against any wind or current.

Can you think of any reason why that wouldn't work?

Thanks,
KISS
A trip line to the other end of the stock had been common practice to unset an anchor. I think your post accomplished it's intent Groucho. It seems adding some fun is fun.
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Old 05-10-2014, 14:31   #100
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Re: Alternative Anchor Hauling Method

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Kiss, your inexperience shows in several ways. One is your talking about a "halyard winch" for retrieving anchors. I made an effort to explain why this was a bad idea related to loads on the winch mount and the mast. You now talk about the winch being on the bow... halyard winches, young man, are conventionally mounted on the mast. That's where the access to the halyards is most direct. Sometimes halyard winches are on the companionway coaming in the cockpit, and very occasionally on the deck aft of the mast. Never heard of a halyard winch on the bow!
1. A halyard is a rope, nothing more. Any winch which pulls rope can be called a halyard winch, no matter what it's hauling (sail or anchor) or where it's located (mast or bow). If you don't believe me, consult a dictionary.

2. Where you should mount a halyard winch depends on what it's being used for. A winch being used to adjust sails is conventionally located on the mast because that's the convenient place for that purpose. But that location makes no sense if using the winch to haul an anchor. The bow makes sense.

3. Your comment about the direction of loading is missing the point: namely, since a winch can be mounted anywhere, in any position, it can always be oriented so that the direction of loading is correct.

Quote:
Now you are suggesting that Boat Alexander's experience validates your ideas. You should note that his boat is a bit smaller than your proposed vessel, and that his gear is a lot lighter. What works for him may be marginal or totally unsuccessful for you.
Not just him/her. There were several posters who confirmed the workability of hand hauling. One (forget his username at the moment) was hauling 300' of G43 (.75lbs/foot) and a 33lbs anchor = 258lbs.

Quote:
And where are you getting the WLL limits for windlasses?
From the manufacturers websites and/or product manuals.

One of the windlasses I mentioned was the Lewmar H2. It has a max pulling power of 1433lbs. Wow! That's a lot! Yeaaaaa, but the WLL is only 360lbs.

http://www.lewmar.com/products.asp?i...=110&channel=1

Compare this to the little #20 harken winch. It has a WLL of 1213lbs
http://www.harken.com/uploadedfiles/...-01_20-2pt.pdf

Quote:
And surely you don't believe that when the rode is vertical that the maximum load that is required is the weight of anchor and chain? Anchors, in execution of their duties, bury themselves into the seabed. It can take FAR more pull to break out an anchor than its weight.
When the rode is vertical, scope is 0, and anchor holding power is nil.
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Old 05-10-2014, 14:39   #101
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Re: Alternative Anchor Hauling Method

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanami2 View Post
Very good question.
I had is issue of the windlass not working whislt at anchor in the Tobago Kays between 2 islands and facing the wind of course.
Hopefully I did use, as I always do, a tripping line (TL).
It is very similar to your concept but as the line goes directly from the anchor to the buoy above there is no risk of it being twisted around the chain or anything else.
We just motored to the TL buoy, brought the chain back on board by hand and raised the anchor using the TL line.
It works if you have an engine but if you don't and have a heavy boat with the wind bowing from the bow it might be a bit more challenging to reach the TL buoy.
That's the reason why the line used for the TL is strong enough that we can tie a longer one to it and haul the boat using a winch (electrical or not) and solve the problem.

I hope it helps

Marc on SY Hanami II.
It does, thanks! Sounds like a great KISS option to add to my repertoire.
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Old 05-10-2014, 14:43   #102
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Re: Alternative Anchor Hauling Method

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Originally Posted by AnchorageGuy View Post
hink about the weight of a chain laying on the bottom in the mud, you will be anchoring a lot in mud, with 50 feet trailing behind the boat TWICE. That chain has settled in the mud. You're not pulling straight up and baring only the weight of the chain. You're pulling the chain sideways after it has buried itself in the muck. The force to pull the chain straight up from the mud is considerably less than trying to pull it sideways through the mud for 100 feet and then pick it up.
True, but how much force is that really? Just the friction of the chain in the mud. Apparently, that's not enough to make hand hauling a long change impossible, since plenty of people are doing it.
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Old 05-10-2014, 14:44   #103
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Re: Alternative Anchor Hauling Method

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Originally Posted by SailFastTri View Post
KISS -- The reason the vast majority of cruising boats (especially single-handers) are equipped with electric windlass is because it SIMPLIFIES things, and adds safety by adding efficiency.
Or, it could be that they're averse to physical labor.

Why do dishwashers exist?

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Old 05-10-2014, 14:49   #104
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Re: Alternative Anchor Hauling Method

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Or, it could be that they're averse to physical labor.

Why do dishwashers exist?

I find it comical but almost sad that some take you serious.
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Old 05-10-2014, 15:01   #105
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pirate Re: Alternative Anchor Hauling Method

A halyard is a rope ... Yes, very astute.. However a Sheet is also a rope.. and is chosen in size for extra load.. a rode can also be a rope and... once again is bigger/stronger whatever to take the load..
Suggest you Google nautical... Then get sensible... Lmao
Quote:
Originally Posted by KISS View Post
1. A halyard is a rope, nothing more. Any winch which pulls rope can be called a halyard winch, no matter what it's hauling (sail or anchor) or where it's located (mast or bow). If you don't believe me, consult a dictionary.

2. Where you should mount a halyard winch depends on what it's being used for. A winch being used to adjust sails is conventionally located on the mast because that's the convenient place for that purpose. But that location makes no sense if using the winch to haul an anchor. The bow makes sense.

3. Your comment about the direction of loading is missing the point: namely, since a winch can be mounted anywhere, in any position, it can always be oriented so that the direction of loading is correct.

Not just him/her. There were several posters who confirmed the workability of hand hauling. One (forget his username at the moment) was hauling 300' of G43 (.75lbs/foot) and a 33lbs anchor = 258lbs.

From the manufacturers websites and/or product manuals.

One of the windlasses I mentioned was the Lewmar H2. It has a max pulling power of 1433lbs. Wow! That's a lot! Yeaaaaa, but the WLL is only 360lbs.

http://www.lewmar.com/products.asp?i...=110&channel=1

Compare this to the little #20 harken winch. It has a WLL of 1213lbs
http://www.harken.com/uploadedfiles/...-01_20-2pt.pdf



When the rode is vertical, scope is 0, and anchor holding power is nil.
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