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Old 31-12-2011, 16:15   #1
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Alberg 30 Ground Tackle Upgrade Help !

Hi everyone,

I had a bad experience last night where my anchor dragged us nearly into some docks..... Long story. I am a new liveaboard in the pnw on a full keel Alberg 30.

I have 25" of chain and some new nylon on a 30 lb cqr.

I am thinking of upgrading to all chain. From everything I have read.... I don't care about the lost performance as its my house and my gf on board!!!

I want to go to bed at night when I have set the anchor and not worry.

All chain and a snubber? What size chain for my small but heavy boat? Upgrade to a 40lb cqr?

Thanks community!

Joel.
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Old 31-12-2011, 16:47   #2
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Re: Alberg 30 ground tackle upgrade help!

Changing to all chain will add more than 100 lbs to the weight of your tackle without significantly improving the holding power. More chain will reduce the likelihood of chafe, but will not improve holding power. The CQR anchors are notorious for dragging. You should consider changing to a 35 lb, or even 45 lb Manson Supreme before adding more chain. Also make sure you use proper anchoring technique (see http://bethandevans.com/pdf/Anchorsteps.pdf)
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Old 31-12-2011, 17:12   #3
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Re: Alberg 30 ground tackle upgrade help!

Joel,

It sucks to wake up and realize you've dragged, but all's well that ends well! You'll get many opinions, but I think the consensus will be this:
1) Make sure you have enough scope, etc. Not to impugn your technique, but it's worth thinking about.
2) add more chain, because 25 ft isn't enough to protect your rode from abrasion on the bottom
3) It's the anchor that will keep you from dragging, not the chain. Some will point out that a 30# CQR should easily hold your 10,000# boat, if set properly. But if you've lost confidence in your anchor, and you want to sleep, try a newer design.

Here's a recommendation that won't break the bank. How about 50ft of 1/4" G40 chain and a 25 lb Manson Supreme? I'll assume that you're not using an electric windlass, but you're also feeling strong? In that case, you could go with a 35# Manson Supreme. I'd think that would hold your boat in a hurricane, if set properly.
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Old 31-12-2011, 20:31   #4
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Re: Alberg 30 ground tackle upgrade help!

I have had good luck with 22lb delta with 30ft of 3/8 chain on 5/8 rode and usually 10:1 scope with my Alberg 30. We have been anchored in wind 25-30 kts and have held steady. I plan to upgrade to the 35lb delta.
There are definitely lots of options and even more opinions when it comes to settting and types of anchors. you will have to experiment and see what works best. I have a cheap handheld GPS and always set the drag alarm as a back up.
you may even try using two anchors. i am not sure what this method is called or if there is a name for it but I read about in one of the Pardey books, Setting two anchors 90degrees apart and tying off in the center
Good Luck with your Alberg. I love mine!
I dont live aboard yet...but hope to within a few years.
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Old 31-12-2011, 22:41   #5
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Re: Alberg 30 ground tackle upgrade help!

I too think a newer anchor design will help more than going to all chain. I love my Delta and I hear great things about the Manson Supreme. Certainly more chain can't hurt but go with G4 to keep the weight down.
ACCO is a good brand of chain.
I'd love to quote you on a new anchor but I'm afraid the shipping charges from Miami to the PNW might eat up anything I could save you on the price of the anchor. If you would like me to try, send me an email with your zip code and which anchor you decide on.
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Old 31-12-2011, 23:14   #6
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Re: Alberg 30 ground tackle upgrade help!

What was the weather like?
What was the bottom like?

I disagree with Ziggy, I think the chain will improve your holding, not a ton but some.

I also disagree with Cfarrar on some points, I don't think the CQR is notorious for dragging. And I don't think that Manson or Rocna anchors are stunningly better than CQR or Bruce. While reading a lot of anchor anchor threads here I've noticed that a lot the folks that rave about how much better the new anchors hold compared to their old anchors at some point mention they up-sized when the made the change.

I think that in 10yr or so when the hoopla dies down the consensus will be that the new anchors are somewhat better than CQR or Bruce and that up-sizing has a much bigger effect on holding. Also that in special situations like mud/soft sand or rock/weeds, Danforth/Fortress and Hershoff/Fisherman/Luke, are still better in those respective situations.

My recommendation would depend on your budget. In order of increasing budget I would:

1. Up size the CQR 1 step
2. Increase rode to 100-125' of 1/4" G4 chain plus a 200-300' of line.
3. Get a Fortress/Danforth w/ 30' chain and 200' line (use the rode left over from #2.
4. Get a Luke anchor w/ 30' chain and 200' line
5. Install windlass and increase chain length to 150' or more (still 1/4" G4)
6. Electric windlass
7. Change main anchor to a Delta (up-sized from current)
8. Change anchor to Manson or Rocna (up-sized from current)

My reasoning:

1. Up-sizing is the best bang for the buck. It appears that they are back in production, though at a pretty hefty price. Buying used should put you in the $200-300 range. Given that a lot of people are converting to newer anchor designs, they should be available cheap at local swap meets or on Ebay.

2. Going with a lot of chain provides a several small primary benefits related to holding: aid to catenary, abrasion resistance, some drag on the seafloor until the wind becomes so strong most or all of the chain is lifted clear; and secondary benefits: less sailing back and forth at anchor. Assuming you do not have a windlass (and even if you do) you should install a chain stopper at the bow just behind the roller. With the stopper you can manually hoist a fairly large weight of anchor and chain.

3. & 4. Whatever your main anchor is there will be special anchoring situations where you want a specialist anchor, soft sand and mud (Fortress/Danforth) and rock & weeds (fisherman/Hershoff/Luke). To use a car analogy, if you needed to drive across a desert you would want a 4 wheel drive jeep, you could do it in a pickup or maybe even the family sedan but the jeep would be much preferred.

5. A windlass makes pulling up the anchor and resetting it a lot easier. For a boat your size a manual windlass would be just fine though there are only 2 models in current production anymore, Lofrans Royal and Vetus Ursus. Expect cost to be about $1000 installed.

6.When you are cold, wet and tired, the effort of raising anchor and setting it again may make you choose to live with the current set even if it is questionable. Electric makes the process easier and therefore you are more likely to do so. Figure the cost at about $2000 installed including wiring and breakers. You will need to make sure your electric system can handle the loads and you need to make sure the windlass you choose can work manually and and has a reasonable mechanical advantage (12:1 or better). A vertical axis windlass is unlikely to have sufficient mechanical advantage unless it is geared like a cockpit winch.

7. Mild improvement in performance over a CQR. $300 or so new for 44lb model.

8. Somewhat better performance over same sized CQR. $500-1000 depending on source and shipping.
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Old 01-01-2012, 07:35   #7
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Re: Alberg 30 ground tackle upgrade help!

Joel,

It looks like a new 35# Manson Supreme is only about $350-375 at a discount marine store. You can do the math and figure out how much anchor and rode you want to lift with your bare hands... 1/4" chain weighs .73# per ft. I'm guessing that 40-50 ft of chain and a 35# anchor is not unreasonable? As for a second anchor, a second-hand Danforth can be found for real cheap, but I doubt you use it unless you lose your primary anchor.

Colin
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Old 01-01-2012, 11:16   #8
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Joel,

That was a real snotty blow on Friday night. We were down on my dad's boat in false creek for dinner when it blew through. Knowing where you're anchored (mud), in relatively shallow water (i think most of false creek is no more than 20 ft
deep), and most unfortunately crowded, with other boats marinas and such (not enough space for lots of swing room)...

We've sat out blows in the area with our similar boat with our 35 lbs. CQR... but we have 220' of 5/16" chain. IMHO, it's all that chain which helps. For our area, chafe along the bottom is not really an issue (where the rode leaves the boat is of course).

Hopefully you candid something that will work!
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Old 01-01-2012, 12:24   #9
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Re: Alberg 30 ground tackle upgrade help!

1) 25'' chain sounds shortish, we use 100' of 5/16 here and I would use more if we had the capacity to store it and handle it, or if, the winch, I were younger or bigger,

2) make sure your CQR is good for the bottom where you anchor, our experience with CQR was it dragged most of the time, we changed to another type, CQR is said to be great in some types of bottom, less so in others,

b.
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Old 01-01-2012, 12:53   #10
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Re: Alberg 30 ground tackle upgrade help!

Vancouver? Danforth or a copy ok.and Lots of scope.Rope is fine.
False Creek? two anchors.

Ploughs...take it to the beach and TRY it.Drag it along and see if it's that good.I've worn /rusted the hinge a bit on one and it WON'T dig in.The same is true of Danforths,at the "stop".Angle is critical.

PS:look up "kellet" a weight to mimic scope
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Old 01-01-2012, 12:58   #11
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Re: Alberg 30 ground tackle upgrade help!

We anchored 24/7 for well over a year on 45# CQR, 230' 3/8" chain and 21,000# displacement. Never ever dragged including a Tropical Depression with 50+ mph winds.

If you are serious about cruising and/or 24/7 at anchor, go with all chain. Chain is simply peace of mind over rope/chain rode. 1/4" G4 should do it for your sized boat. Your CQR seems adequate for you displacment but the newer inverted plow style (Manson Supreme/Spade/Rocna) seem to offer better holding for the weight of the anchor. Electric Windlasses sure are nifty especially for a single hander but a manual windlass will do the job as well. Problem is finding a manual windlass these days. The old ABI bronze windlass was a great piece of gear for your size boat but ABI is out of business so you'd probably be stuck with whatever size chain gypsy comes with the boat. The Simpson Lawrence Hyspeed windlasses are also good for your size boat but be aware that they can freeze up from dissimilar metal issues.

FWIW, current boat with 13,000# displacement has 130" of 5/16" G4 backed with 200' of 6 strand nylon brait and a 35# manson. Has done it's job well but never really been severely tested. 30Knot winds in a flat anchorage went off without a hitch, though.

Another thought, a 20h Danforth or 16 Fortress might have been a better anchor for the conditions if it was mud. My experience anchoring in mud with a Danforth is it's not an issue with holding, it's getting the anchor out of the mud when you leave. Have had to dive, dig down to the anchor and pull it out backwards after kedging situations. Two 20 something guys cranking on linked Lewmar 40 winches only pulled the bow down, not the anchor up.
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Old 01-01-2012, 17:22   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruiser2B
I have had good luck with 22lb delta with 30ft of 3/8 chain on 5/8 rode and usually 10:1 scope with my Alberg 30. We have been anchored in wind 25-30 kts and have held steady. I plan to upgrade to the 35lb delta.
There are definitely lots of options and even more opinions when it comes to settting and types of anchors. you will have to experiment and see what works best. I have a cheap handheld GPS and always set the drag alarm as a back up.
you may even try using two anchors. i am not sure what this method is called or if there is a name for it but I read about in one of the Pardey books, Setting two anchors 90degrees apart and tying off in the center
Good Luck with your Alberg. I love mine!
I dont live aboard yet...but hope to within a few years.
Scope is for sure key.... It's hard sometimes in the crowded anchorage I am in to set more then 5:1.
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Old 01-01-2012, 17:22   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HopCar
I too think a newer anchor design will help more than going to all chain. I love my Delta and I hear great things about the Manson Supreme. Certainly more chain can't hurt but go with G4 to keep the weight down.
ACCO is a good brand of chain.
I'd love to quote you on a new anchor but I'm afraid the shipping charges from Miami to the PNW might eat up anything I could save you on the price of the anchor. If you would like me to try, send me an email with your zip code and which anchor you decide on.
Thanks!
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Old 01-01-2012, 17:30   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serah
Joel,

That was a real snotty blow on Friday night. We were down on my dad's boat in false creek for dinner when it blew through. Knowing where you're anchored (mud), in relatively shallow water (i think most of false creek is no more than 20 ft
deep), and most unfortunately crowded, with other boats marinas and such (not enough space for lots of swing room)...

We've sat out blows in the area with our similar boat with our 35 lbs. CQR... but we have 220' of 5/16" chain. IMHO, it's all that chain which helps. For our area, chafe along the bottom is not really an issue (where the rode leaves the boat is of course).

Hopefully you candid something that will work!
The worst thing is that we have been through much much worse and not moved an inch. I think that afternoon storm came in With the tide and grabbed us.
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Old 01-01-2012, 17:32   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappySeagull
Vancouver? Danforth or a copy ok.and Lots of scope.Rope is fine.
False Creek? two anchors.

Ploughs...take it to the beach and TRY it.Drag it along and see if it's that good.I've worn /rusted the hinge a bit on one and it WON'T dig in.The same is true of Danforths,at the "stop".Angle is critical.

PS:look up "kellet" a weight to mimic scope
For sure two anchors from now on.
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