Alberg 30 Ground Tackle Upgrade Help !

[Nomdaica]

Originally Posted by roverhi

We anchored 24/7 for well over a year on 45# CQR, 230' 3/8" chain and 21,000# displacement. Never ever dragged including a Tropical Depression with 50+ mph winds.

If you are serious about cruising and/or 24/7 at anchor, go with all chain. Chain is simply peace of mind over rope/chain rode. 1/4" G4 should do it for your sized boat. Your CQR seems adequate for you displacment but the newer inverted plow style (Manson Supreme/Spade/Rocna) seem to offer better holding for the weight of the anchor. Electric Windlasses sure are nifty especially for a single hander but a manual windlass will do the job as well. Problem is finding a manual windlass these days. The old ABI bronze windlass was a great piece of gear for your size boat but ABI is out of business so you'd probably be stuck with whatever size chain gypsy comes with the boat. The Simpson Lawrence Hyspeed windlasses are also good for your size boat but be aware that they can freeze up from dissimilar metal issues.

FWIW, current boat with 13,000# displacement has 130" of 5/16" G4 backed with 200' of 6 strand nylon brait and a 35# manson. Has done it's job well but never really been severely tested. 30Knot winds in a flat anchorage went off without a hitch, though.

Another thought, a 20h Danforth or 16 Fortress might have been a better anchor for the conditions if it was mud. My experience anchoring in mud with a Danforth is it's not an issue with holding, it's getting the anchor out of the mud when you leave. Have had to dive, dig down to the anchor and pull it out backwards after kedging situations. Two 20 something guys cranking on linked Lewmar 40 winches only pulled the bow down, not the anchor up.

We are living aboard until the boat is blue water ready..... All chain it is I think this week!

[klem]

If you are evaluating new ground tackle, you really need to determine what it needs to do. In your last post, you hinted that you are getting the boat blue water ready and living aboard in the PNW in the meantime. Looking at your current situation, if you are in one place only, a mooring would be your best option. If you are moving around, then good ground tackle is best. For blue water voyaging, knowing where you will go will be important as well as the weather you expect to encounter. To convert your expected conditions into loads, you can start with the ABYC suggested loads for given conditions. In my case, I wanted the ground tackle to be able to handle any thunderstorm or tropical storm on the east coast given <.5mile fetch and not totally unreasonable bottom conditions.

Before purchasing my ground tackle, I came up with a set of specifications which I have listed several of below (what I can remember)
Ability to set reliably in all bottoms except smooth rock ledge
Ability to stay embedded during 180 degree wind shift (no resetting)
Holding power reliably in excess of 2000lbs in medium density mud and sand
Less than 60 lbs water weight so that it can be used without a windlass
Sufficient rode to anchor at 5:1 scope in 50' of water
Obviously, these specifications would be different for each person and application. If you are blue water voyaging, one obvious spec to add might be chafe resistance. Our boats are very similar in size and design so I would suspect that the loads would be similar.

The single most important component is the anchor since it is what will hold you. When I looked at anchors, most 35 lb anchors had sufficient holding power in most bottoms provided that it was properly set. Therefore, the real key in anchor selection for me became setting ability and how the anchor dealt with a wind shift. These are areas where the cqr anchor does poorly and the new generation anchors (manson supreme, spade, rocna) do quite well. The only bottom that I have heard reports of the manson supreme not working are parts of the coast of Chile. If you were to go to a manson supreme, a 35lb anchor would work in most bottoms for any reasonable storm. If your severe storm plan involved anchoring, you might consider a 45lb.

Despite many claims to the contrary, the rode's job is to provide a connection between the anchor and the boat, not to provide any holding power. I would assume that your choice is between all chain and a combination chain/line rode. If chafe on coral is a big concern, then there is no substitute for all chain. However, in many cases, this doesn't work because it requires a windlass to retrieve all of that weight in deeper anchorages. Additionally, it adds too much weight to the bow of the boat and makes the boat handle very poorly in waves. One of the claims of people who insist on an all chain rode is that it increases holding power and decreases shock through catenary. Unfortunately, this simply is not true. In a situation where you really need that catenary, the chain that you can carry won't be heavy enough to provide any benefit. If you search the archives you will find that this debate has come up many times and those of us who have been through severe weather agree that the chain is essentially a straight line. Using a kellet is essentially the same as using all chain and it would require an absolutely enormous one to make any difference. The best way to increase holding power is to increase scope since it actually changes the angle of pull on your anchor. This doesn't mean that you always need 10:1 scope, that would be ridiculous and leave no room for anyone else, but you may consider it in an extreme storm situation. The vast majority of nights you will be hardly loading your anchor at all and need much less scope. To deal with shock loading, the best thing that you can do is have a piece of line involved somewhere to provide for stretch. In the case of a mixed rode, this line is already present and in the case of all chain, it is the snubber.

If you choose all chain, then the length of it is determined by what you consider sufficient scope in the deepest anchorage you expect to encounter. The diameter of the chain should be determined by the minimum diameter with a WLL greater than your highest expected load. You can also play with what grade chain you use but I would recommend using G40. G30 means generally that you will need a size bigger chain which means more weight in the bow which is really bad. G70 is the strongest but you usually need large end links and it is not regularly stocked. Using G40 chain, you should be able to use 1/4" or 5/16" depending on your preference. In a mixed rode, many people use a rule of thumb that the chain should be at least as long as the boat which seems to work reasonably well. With line, I like to use a 5X safety factor to take into account chafe and degredation meaning that I would need a minimum of 10,000 lbs tensile strength for a 2000lb maximum expected load.

For reference on my very similar Cape Dory 30, I ended up with a manson 35, 30' of 3/8" BBB (this was lying around and I would have used 40' of 5/16" G40 if I did it again) and 250' of 5/8" 3 strand nylon. It certainly isn't the only setup that would work on this boat but it has worked through a couple of severe thunderstorms, nor'easters and Irene. I have spent well over 1000 nights at anchor on various boats at this point and feel strongly that there have been huge improvements in recent years that make for a much safer and more enjoyable experience at anchor.

[HappySeagull]

Originally Posted by Nomdaica

For sure two anchors from now on.

in False Creek,It'll be tricky with the crowd in there,but on the other hand,this limits your swing so well...If someone moves,get in there!and set up.
1 East and 1 West is best ie:the normal winds.Dig one in with the other using your winch.This'll inform you if one isn't set due to a soup can,shopping cart,old pipe or not enough scope.Include slack for the tides and a little bit more for the occassional S->SSW you get in Springlike weather from Juan de Fuca and the twisting-up caused by swinging around.The twisting-up actually helps to keep the ropes in your likely-tiny roller so don't sweat it,in there.

[Ziggy]

You would do well to heed Klem's advice above.

[Nomdaica]

Originally Posted by Ziggy

You would do well to heed Klem's advice above.

Agreed , sat going to get chain,

[boatman61]

Go for all chain and a 15kg Bruce... if your in waters that change direction... and most places do... the Bruce is your best bet... with 3.5 times the length of your boat + depth and drop....
But... its your boat...

[Nomdaica]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Go for all chain and a 15kg Bruce... if your in waters that change direction... and most places do... the Bruce is your best bet... with 3.5 times the length of your boat + depth and drop....
But... its your boat...

Thanks for this. May I ask why e Bruce over a larger cqr?

[Nomdaica]

Originally Posted by klem

If you are evaluating new ground tackle, you really need to determine what it needs to do. In your last post, you hinted that you are getting the boat blue water ready and living aboard in the PNW in the meantime. Looking at your current situation, if you are in one place only, a mooring would be your best option. If you are moving around, then good ground tackle is best. For blue water voyaging, knowing where you will go will be important as well as the weather you expect to encounter. To convert your expected conditions into loads, you can start with the ABYC suggested loads for given conditions. In my case, I wanted the ground tackle to be able to handle any thunderstorm or tropical storm on the east coast given <.5mile fetch and not totally unreasonable bottom conditions.

Before purchasing my ground tackle, I came up with a set of specifications which I have listed several of below (what I can remember)
Ability to set reliably in all bottoms except smooth rock ledge
Ability to stay embedded during 180 degree wind shift (no resetting)
Holding power reliably in excess of 2000lbs in medium density mud and sand
Less than 60 lbs water weight so that it can be used without a windlass
Sufficient rode to anchor at 5:1 scope in 50' of water
Obviously, these specifications would be different for each person and application. If you are blue water voyaging, one obvious spec to add might be chafe resistance. Our boats are very similar in size and design so I would suspect that the loads would be similar.

The single most important component is the anchor since it is what will hold you. When I looked at anchors, most 35 lb anchors had sufficient holding power in most bottoms provided that it was properly set. Therefore, the real key in anchor selection for me became setting ability and how the anchor dealt with a wind shift. These are areas where the cqr anchor does poorly and the new generation anchors (manson supreme, spade, rocna) do quite well. The only bottom that I have heard reports of the manson supreme not working are parts of the coast of Chile. If you were to go to a manson supreme, a 35lb anchor would work in most bottoms for any reasonable storm. If your severe storm plan involved anchoring, you might consider a 45lb.

Despite many claims to the contrary, the rode's job is to provide a connection between the anchor and the boat, not to provide any holding power. I would assume that your choice is between all chain and a combination chain/line rode. If chafe on coral is a big concern, then there is no substitute for all chain. However, in many cases, this doesn't work because it requires a windlass to retrieve all of that weight in deeper anchorages. Additionally, it adds too much weight to the bow of the boat and makes the boat handle very poorly in waves. One of the claims of people who insist on an all chain rode is that it increases holding power and decreases shock through catenary. Unfortunately, this simply is not true. In a situation where you really need that catenary, the chain that you can carry won't be heavy enough to provide any benefit. If you search the archives you will find that this debate has come up many times and those of us who have been through severe weather agree that the chain is essentially a straight line. Using a kellet is essentially the same as using all chain and it would require an absolutely enormous one to make any difference. The best way to increase holding power is to increase scope since it actually changes the angle of pull on your anchor. This doesn't mean that you always need 10:1 scope, that would be ridiculous and leave no room for anyone else, but you may consider it in an extreme storm situation. The vast majority of nights you will be hardly loading your anchor at all and need much less scope. To deal with shock loading, the best thing that you can do is have a piece of line involved somewhere to provide for stretch. In the case of a mixed rode, this line is already present and in the case of all chain, it is the snubber.

If you choose all chain, then the length of it is determined by what you consider sufficient scope in the deepest anchorage you expect to encounter. The diameter of the chain should be determined by the minimum diameter with a WLL greater than your highest expected load. You can also play with what grade chain you use but I would recommend using G40. G30 means generally that you will need a size bigger chain which means more weight in the bow which is really bad. G70 is the strongest but you usually need large end links and it is not regularly stocked. Using G40 chain, you should be able to use 1/4" or 5/16" depending on your preference. In a mixed rode, many people use a rule of thumb that the chain should be at least as long as the boat which seems to work reasonably well. With line, I like to use a 5X safety factor to take into account chafe and degredation meaning that I would need a minimum of 10,000 lbs tensile strength for a 2000lb maximum expected load.

For reference on my very similar Cape Dory 30, I ended up with a manson 35, 30' of 3/8" BBB (this was lying around and I would have used 40' of 5/16" G40 if I did it again) and 250' of 5/8" 3 strand nylon. It certainly isn't the only setup that would work on this boat but it has worked through a couple of severe thunderstorms, nor'easters and Irene. I have spent well over 1000 nights at anchor on various boats at this point and feel strongly that there have been huge improvements in recent years that make for a much safer and more enjoyable experience at anchor.

Thanks, you wrote me a book!!!

[boatman61]

A Bruce is a great self setter and no sharp edges to snag your chain...
I also carry a CQR secondary...

[klem]

Claw or Bruce type anchors tend to do quite well when it comes to setting and staying set in wind shifts. There are bottoms where they will not set (thick weeds for example) but they work in most including those bottoms in Chile where the new generation anchors struggled. The reason that I did not originally recommend the Bruce is that it struggles in holding power. This can be easily remedied by increasing the size of the anchor but then you have more weight to deal with which may or may not be a problem for you. In my limited experience in the PNW with a bruce, it worked quite well there.

If you do look at a bruce, beware that there are some very poorly built versions out there. You can no longer buy a new Bruce, you have to buy a copy. If you do buy one, to my knowledge, the best built is the Manson Ray. With a little searching, I am sure that you will be able to turn up pictures of broken claw anchors due to poor quality castings.

[charliehows]

I use a 35lb cqr and 10mm all chain, never dragged so far but... i have a manual winch and if i have to anchor over 10m its very hard work pulling the chain weight - i keep a danforth on rope for emergency deep anchoring and if i was worried about the cqr dragging i'd start by shackling the danforth on 8-10m up the chain - ive done that before on a boat that was semi-permanently anchored in nz and it never budged.

[cheoah]

I used to sail a Cape Dory 30, lots of night at anchor. Like Klem, I used a mixed rode, and went with the 5/16 G4, about 30'. My 25# CQR and 5/8 three strand was the go to tackle for most nights, with an added DAnforth/Fortress for bigger blows. (tropical storms/hurricanes).

Weight in the ends was one good reason, but cost, and the fact that a mixed rode worked so well for my cruising conditions led me to stick with the same setup on my current boat.

I don't know where you are going so don't know what you need, but all chain may not have solved your problem last night. If you are anchoring 5:1, are you factoring in several feet from stem to water line, and then the pitching of the boat if there is any fetch? My system worked because I was able to stretch out to 7:1 or 10:1, or added a big fortress or danforth in a blow.

There's a couple of good anchor alarm apps out there. that with some added scope, more chain of you really need it, and some luck and you'll be good to go. I would stay in the cockpit if I was anchored 5:1 in a blow...

[s/v Jedi]

The best thing you can do is sell your CQR and buy a used but original Bruce. Made in UK or made in Belgium are the only originals IIRC. The Bruce knock-offs are nothing like a Bruce, they are far far from clones.
Wasn't the Bruce the first anchor that was engineered? All that came before it was just ideas or something else not based on science.

I would not buy a knock off. Instead, get a Spade, Manson Supreme etc.

cheers,
Nick.

[redcobra]

What's the bottom? With my Alberg 30 in the Chesapeake which is all mud and sand, I used a Danforth 12H as old as the boat with 6' of chain and 1/2' nylon rode. Never dragged even in some big blows. Once increased scope to 10/1 but that's all.
After one blow could hardly get the anchor out. Buried itself almost to China.
But then, that's in the Chesapeake goop.
What's the bottom?

[Curmudgeon]

If you go with a Manson Supreme, Rocna or another "rollbar" style anchor, check first to see if the anchor with the weight you want fits on your bow roller.