Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 29-04-2014, 21:12   #31
Registered User
 
tomfl's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Florida
Boat: Seawind 1000xl
Posts: 2,659
Images: 15
Re: Active Anchoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
SNIP

I have had hooks come unset entirely on me before (mostly while running charter/delivery boats with less than ideal ground tackle set ups) in unstable wearher.

SNIP
If I looked a while I could find what I thought was the best link about anchoring.

Point one was to have good ground tackle.

Point two was to select a good place to anchor.

Point three was to back down.

Point four was to use something like Drag Queen.

I suspect following this advice would solve almost all anchoring issues.
tomfl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-04-2014, 21:15   #32
Registered User
 
Terra Nova's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Marina del Rey, California
Boat: Mako 248
Posts: 4,089
Re: Active Anchoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElGatoGordo View Post
...you handled TN's childish slam well...
What could be worse than saying "I've got all the right equipment and I'm in the right place so I have no need to pay attention, I'll NEVER drag." Which is what TN said.[/FONT][/COLOR]
Hang on there, Sluggo. At least quote me --don't make it up.

From OP's first post "If winds increase to about 30 knots I engage the engines and use them to hold the bow into the wind and take some load off the rode."

I know nothing at all of the OP. But having to use the motor to "hold the bow into the wind" (really?) at only 30 knots suggests:
a) very poorly setup or inadequate ground tackle
b) lack of knowledge of riding sails
c) WAY too much faith in the motor

Now, rereading his post I see he said engine(S) and have to wonder how seaworthy this boat was, a mid-size power boat? Then more than likely to have inadequate ground tackle.
__________________
1st rule of yachting: When a collision is unavoidable, aim for something cheap.
"whatever spare parts you bring, you'll never need"--goboatingnow
"Id rather drown than have computers take over my life."--d design
Terra Nova is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-04-2014, 06:43   #33
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: W Carib
Boat: Wildcat 35, Hobie 33
Posts: 12,668
Re: Active Anchoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
Hang on there, Sluggo. At least quote me --don't make it up.

From OP's first post "If winds increase to about 30 knots I engage the engines and use them to hold the bow into the wind and take some load off the rode."

I know nothing at all of the OP. But having to use the motor to "hold the bow into the wind" (really?) at only 30 knots suggests:
a) very poorly setup or inadequate ground tackle
b) lack of knowledge of riding sails
c) WAY too much faith in the motor

Now, rereading his post I see he said engine(S) and have to wonder how seaworthy this boat was, a mid-size power boat? Then more than likely to have inadequate ground tackle.
Yes, mine is one of those terribly unseaworthy multihull things. I run a lot of them in charter too.

Been doing it professionally for almost three decades now....apparently I've been doing it all wrong...thanks for setting me straight.
belizesailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-04-2014, 07:07   #34
Registered User
 
colemj's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,104
Images: 12
Re: Active Anchoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
Now, rereading his post I see he said engine(S) and have to wonder how seaworthy this boat was, a mid-size power boat? Then more than likely to have inadequate ground tackle.
The fewer engines on a boat, the more seaworthy it is? You don't have much experience with different boat designs, I guess.

BTW, the OP lists his boat right in his profile, so you don't have to wonder very hard about it.

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-04-2014, 07:31   #35
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: W Carib
Boat: Wildcat 35, Hobie 33
Posts: 12,668
Re: Active Anchoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
...

From OP's first post "If winds increase to about 30 knots I engage the engines and use them to hold the bow into the wind and take some load off the rode."
....
Since that comment seems to be attracting the most attention probably worthwhile to expand upon it a bit.

If I'm running my own boat, with my own oversized and properly set ground tackle, then 30 knots doesn't concern me much, but I may start (not engage) the engines, at that point just in case there is a dramatic increase in velocity (as is common around squalls). I don't care what your ground tackle set up is...60 knots may drag you. And in the GOM and W Carib I've seen 50-60 knots in squalls many times.

Also, if I find myself in a less than ideal anchorage (not so great holding and/or nearby hazards for example), or running another boat with less than ideal ground tackle, I'm probably going to start the engine(s) (yes, I run those single hull thingys too) when the breeze picks up into the 30 knot range just in case.

Even if I don't use them as described then at least they are ready to rock should the hook let go...and I don't find myself trying to resolve an engine issue while heading downwind.

All horridly unseaman like behavior I'm sure...
belizesailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-04-2014, 07:53   #36
Registered User
 
tomfl's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Florida
Boat: Seawind 1000xl
Posts: 2,659
Images: 15
Re: Active Anchoring

Maybe we need to differentiate between our personal boats (which always have over sized modern anchors with plenty of chain and a good bridle with two snubbers that are set in the ideal spot and checked by backing down before setting an anchor alarm) and the other guys boat (that has an undersized old style anchor with old line with no chain and was just thrown off the bow at which point the capt and crew started drinking).
tomfl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-04-2014, 08:10   #37
Registered User
 
Terra Nova's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Marina del Rey, California
Boat: Mako 248
Posts: 4,089
Re: Active Anchoring

OP--With this new information it has become clear that you were likely dealing with two nearly insurmountable problems.
1) an unseaworthy boat
2) inadequate ground tackle

This thread would have been better titled:
"Acrobatic anchoring gyrations required when a little breeze comes up on your inadequately anchored multihull." Or something like that.

What you had to go through to keep the boat off the beach doesn't sound so unreasonable to me, now. And in fact sounds more like heroism than good seamanship. Sorry I misunderstood your predicament.
__________________
1st rule of yachting: When a collision is unavoidable, aim for something cheap.
"whatever spare parts you bring, you'll never need"--goboatingnow
"Id rather drown than have computers take over my life."--d design
Terra Nova is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-04-2014, 09:12   #38
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: W Carib
Boat: Wildcat 35, Hobie 33
Posts: 12,668
Re: Active Anchoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
OP--With this new information it has become clear that you were likely dealing with two nearly insurmountable problems.
1) an unseaworthy boat
2) inadequate ground tackle

This thread would have been better titled:
"Acrobatic anchoring gyrations required when a little breeze comes up on your inadequately anchored multihull." Or something like that.

What you had to go through to keep the boat off the beach doesn't sound so unreasonable to me, now. And in fact sounds more like heroism than good seamanship. Sorry I misunderstood your predicament.
Thanks. I knew I could count on you to clarify the situation.
belizesailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-04-2014, 10:14   #39
Elvish meaning 'Far-Wanderer'
 
Palarran's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Boat - Bahamas - Me - Michigan
Boat: 56' Fountaine Pajot Marquises
Posts: 3,424
Re: Active Anchoring

Belize Sailor,
I've been thinking about your original post. I've only had two real emergency instances of dragging where we could have been up on the beach in minutes. In one my anchor reset and held after letting out almost all my chain. With the other the anchor was clogged with weeds and no reset was going to happen.

But reflecting on the second, I can't really imagine engaging my motors in order to stabilize the boat (cat). When its pitch black, raining, and your getting bashed by waves, IMO there is a very good chance that you will either drive your boat right over your anchor, or end up with a lot of slack chain, the boat goes sideways due to wind and waves, and the anchor gets completely yanked out.

I'm not questioning your abilities. I've read your posts for years and know you are very competent. But I do think that if your going to be active in anchoring due to gale or squall conditions, it's better to retrieve the anchor and either reset it or ride it out in the open.
__________________
Our course is set for an uncharted sea
Dante
Palarran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-04-2014, 10:35   #40
Moderator
 
weavis's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Seville London Eastbourne
Posts: 13,290
Send a message via Skype™ to weavis
Re: Active Anchoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
Underwear? Damn, is this another one of those things "real" cruisers are supposed to have? Can't run around in a panic in mine since I haven't even owned any since 2001.
Just a little bit too much information here...........
__________________
- Never test how deep the water is with both feet -
10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice.
Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.
weavis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-04-2014, 12:16   #41
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: W Carib
Boat: Wildcat 35, Hobie 33
Posts: 12,668
Re: Active Anchoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palarran View Post
Belize Sailor,
I've been thinking about your original post. I've only had two real emergency instances of dragging where we could have been up on the beach in minutes. In one my anchor reset and held after letting out almost all my chain. With the other the anchor was clogged with weeds and no reset was going to happen.

But reflecting on the second, I can't really imagine engaging my motors in order to stabilize the boat (cat). When its pitch black, raining, and your getting bashed by waves, IMO there is a very good chance that you will either drive your boat right over your anchor, or end up with a lot of slack chain, the boat goes sideways due to wind and waves, and the anchor gets completely yanked out.

I'm not questioning your abilities. I've read your posts for years and know you are very competent. But I do think that if your going to be active in anchoring due to gale or squall conditions, it's better to retrieve the anchor and either reset it or ride it out in the open.
Re real anchoring emergencies, very few for me too. In fact none I can recall where I felt like loss of vessel or life was eminent. I do my best to be pro-active and avoid those all together.
As a result, this is not a tactic I use often relative to number of nights at anchor, but just for the occassional very strong unforecast squall.

I do think there is merit, with no downside, to at least starting engine(s) at obvious signs of potential localized severe weather. Analagous to reefing early so that you are prepared beforehand and can shorten your response time in the event the boat does drag.

I often look at the CAPE index to get an idea of the likelyhood of squalls in the abscence of obvious systemic weather activity. When big sustained activity is forecast, I do my best to be in a hole somewhere that I don't have to worry much about dragging etc. So for a sustained "gale" I always try to be somewhere appropriate. Mangroves are nice and soft so dragging into them would be far from catastrophic.

I have used engines to slow a boat's drag and help in resetting the anchor. Once a boat has a bit of momentum, its not likely the hook is going to set. Both in conjunction with letting out more scope and not. In anchorages with poor holding it can just be a matter of holding approximate position for a few minutes till the squall passes.

I do agree that this technique is not without potential issues which may warrant some discussion and prudent use. As you point out, if you moved the boat too much, it could just make the situation worse by shock-loading/veering the ground tackle. But, high winds also generate substantial loads and if the forward thrust is less than these windage loads the boat is not going to move forward, but only reduce the load.

And of course the type of vessel/engine configuration is a consideration too:

When I've done this with cats, I've used twin engines to keep the bows square into the wind and ease off slowly when gusts lay down a bit so as to not shock load the gear.

On a heavy displacement, single screw, monhull this would be more challenging to accomplish and I think more likely to shock load the gear. Maybe in that case better to use the drag and reset approach or deploy a second anchor. An extreme example of such, I used to crew on a traditional sailing vessel of about 620 tons and 150' LOA. When she drug once, the captain's response was to drop the second anchor which successfully checked the drag (sort of like dropping a small car off the bow). Good thing, because getting the primary hook up with the human powered capstan took quite some time and agility under power was not her strong suit (originally engineless).

I've also chosen to drop a secondary hook, drag/reset, or go walk-about till the squall clears, depending upon the situation. I think this "active" technique, like all the others, is a judgement call as to when it would be appropriate.
belizesailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-04-2014, 12:39   #42
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,441
Re: Active Anchoring

It strikes me that the same people who say "I would never use that technique"

are likely to be the same people who, if that technique was all that stood between them and disaster, (provided they weren't to proud to try it at all !)

would find that indeed, for them, it did make things worse, rather than better.

They would then have the (bitter) satisfaction of "See, I knew I was right"

For instance, in this case, overdoing it and over-running the anchor.

The first time to try something is NOT the first time it's needed.

Someone who has a good feel for how many revs it takes to share the load of a given strength of gust, and for the 'body language' of their boat under that shared-load regime, won't need to be able to see their chain.


My other thought is that having the luxury of good anchorages wherever one goes is not, I think, a licence to cast unfavourable aspersions at the seamanship of those who do not.
Andrew Troup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-04-2014, 12:59   #43
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: E Caribbean
Boat: Hunter Passage 42
Posts: 117
Re: Active Anchoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
Reading some of the multitude of anchoring threads, particularly discussions of effectivness of chain cantenary, made me think of a related topic which I've dubbed "active anchoring". Many of the anchoring discussions, and anchor tests, assume "passive" anchoring...meaning no action taken by those aboard the vessel other than to sit and hope they don't drag.

"Active" anchoring I'm defining as taking action to avoid dragging. Specifically what I do is that if I suspect a strong squall is eminent I get up and start the engines. If winds increase to about 30 knots I engage the engines and use them to hold the bow into the wind and take some load off the rode.

I've also used this technique to allow the boat to drag slowly, but check the drag rate so it does not build momentum, and allow the hook to reset successfully.

A couple of precursors to this: if I suspect serious or sustained unstable weather then I go find a nice mangrove hole to hide in and sleep much better. I set an anchor alarm with the radius relatively short (for example, usually 65' even if I am on 200' of rode). My rational is that if the boat moves significantly, even if it is just a swing, then that could signal an approaching squall or other significant change...so I want to know. If weather starts degrading, I sleep in the cockpit or the main salon where maintaining anchor watch is easy and I can be at the helm quickly.

I'm interested in how many practice "active" versus "passive" anchoring and what other strategies/tactics they use.
Hi Belizesailoar, nice to see you're still leading us into interesting topics. Our most "active anchoring" came during a blow when we had dragged with the fortress and were adding our second anchor and couldn't get it to "bite". A young fisherman offered his help and he dove the anchor and pushed it down as we backed. Worked great but I can't see Roy or I able to do that.

S/V Wahoo
__________________
Dale
I say when life gives you limes...
Make a Gin and Tonic!
nolagal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-04-2014, 13:13   #44
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: W Carib
Boat: Wildcat 35, Hobie 33
Posts: 12,668
Re: Active Anchoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by nolagal View Post
Hi Belizesailoar, nice to see you're still leading us into interesting topics. Our most "active anchoring" came during a blow when we had dragged with the fortress and were adding our second anchor and couldn't get it to "bite". A young fisherman offered his help and he dove the anchor and pushed it down as we backed. Worked great but I can't see Roy or I able to do that.

S/V Wahoo
Wahoo! Hand setting the anchor DURING a blow certainly qualifies as "active" ! =-O

Whenever feasible, I dive mine after initially setting, but have not dove it during....handy time to have a local fisherman nearby....especially since the only thing that can out free dive a Belizean fisherman is a FISH.

Still in BZ I assume?
belizesailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-04-2014, 13:14   #45
Registered User
 
cwyckham's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Boat: Niagara 35
Posts: 1,878
Re: Active Anchoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
...
I do agree that this technique is not without potential issues which may warrant some discussion and prudent use. As you point out, if you moved the boat too much, it could just make the situation worse by shock-loading/veering the ground tackle. But, high winds also generate substantial loads and if the forward thrust is less than these windage loads the boat is not going to move forward, but only reduce the load.

...
I'm curious about this. In a very linear world, the thrust will offset the wind load. However, in my experience at lower winds, the boat is sailing around the anchor and fetching up on the chain, even with all chain rode.

Does this stop happening at high wind speeds? I also find that you're often in pretty "dirty" air from surrounding hills, etc. so gusts are hitting you from different directions.

So if you're veering back and forth, even a bit, then the thrust will be at a different angle than the wind loading and you'll accentuate the swing from side to side by having the engine in gear, no?
cwyckham is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
anchor, anchoring

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
From Guns to Active Intelligent Preventitive Techniques swami maximus Construction, Maintenance & Refit 8 22-12-2007 11:31
Experts forecast another active Atlantic hurricane season CaptainK Atlantic & the Caribbean 1 04-04-2006 12:38
2006 Hurricane Forecast ~ "Active Year" GordMay The Library 0 12-12-2005 05:32
Active threads last 24 hours Gisle Forum News & Announcements 0 26-05-2003 12:11
Invisible active users Gisle Forum Tech Support & Site Help 0 12-05-2003 07:38

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 00:33.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.