A Second Wind for Rocna

[S/V Alchemy]

The search function here and at Anything-Sailing.com will help you here. "Exhaustively documented and annotated" pretty well covers it.

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by Dhillen

Are you THE Grant King, formerly at Rocna? Wow. I tried to send you an email privately but am not allowed as I am a new user.

I would be very interested to know what you think went wrong there and if Rocna's are too risky to buy now.

Many thanks.

Dhillen

I doubt that CPM will be directing the factory to substitute cheaper, weaker steel as Holdfast did, but what they are doing is peddling the idea that Peter Smith was wrong when he insisted for years that his design was dependent on a minimum yield steel of 750 MPa (Bisalloy 80), and that what he really meant to say was that steel that is 20% weaker (Q620, MPa 620) is just fine.

Since you can buy an analog of the Rocna made of stronger steel - the Manson - or other designs that always seem to test at the top of the pack - the Fortress - buying a Rocna probably isn't 'risky', just foolish. Why pay more for less?

If CPM positions the Rocna as a lower quality knockoff of the Manson or Sarca and sells it for an appropriate price, it might be an option for people who don't anchor much. However, if they truly intend to make it of lower quality steel, while insisting that is "good enough", and charge the same price you'd pay for a proper piece of equipment, then they should be avoided.

[sailorboy1]

I wonder if CMP really investigated the whole thing before drinling the Kool-Aid. I find the below kind of funny given what we now know:

“I am impressed with the manufacturing, engineering, and quality control capabilities of Canada Metal Pacific,” said Peter Smith, designer of the Rocna anchor. “I look forward to working with them to continue Rocna's growth as the highest quality, best-performing anchor available.”

got that here: http://www.rocna.com/news/canada-metal-acquisition

[GeoPowers]

Just for fun I purused "sombebody's" old posts here on CF. Any guesses as to who it was?

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...kle-44117.html
"Where in the world a piece of steel is forged or cast is really unimportant. What matters is the reputation of the brand in question and how reliable its test certification is. The generic junk sold in bins in chandleries with no trustworthy ratings should be avoided even if it was made just down the street. " (July 23, 2010)

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...y-43079-5.html
"What do you want me to address, it has been addressed a number of times before. The quality of Chinese Rocna anchors is better than the old NZ or Canadian ones. The steel is to a higher grade, the galvanizing is an improvement, and detailing/finishing is better.

You need to be worried not about Chinese skill or capabilities (unless your perspective is w.r.t. competing with China), but rather the western importers and resellers who order products to the lowest specs based purely on pricing (and the consumers that demand them)." (July 20, 2010)


http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...nes-12546.html
"We fine the shanks on the Rocnas down as much as we dare, and any alternative material without drastic design modifications would not be acceptable." (January 30, 2008)

There's lots of entertaining reading by going back to old posts.

Frank

[avb3]

Originally Posted by GeoPowers

There's lots of entertaining reading by going back to old posts.

Frank

OK, I didn't look them up, but I would guess the first name is Craig, right?

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by GeoPowers

Just for fun I purused "sombebody's" old posts here on CF. Any guesses as to who it was?

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...kle-44117.html
"Where in the world a piece of steel is forged or cast is really unimportant. What matters is the reputation of the brand in question and how reliable its test certification is. The generic junk sold in bins in chandleries with no trustworthy ratings should be avoided even if it was made just down the street. " (July 23, 2010)

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...y-43079-5.html
"What do you want me to address, it has been addressed a number of times before. The quality of Chinese Rocna anchors is better than the old NZ or Canadian ones. The steel is to a higher grade, the galvanizing is an improvement, and detailing/finishing is better.

You need to be worried not about Chinese skill or capabilities (unless your perspective is w.r.t. competing with China), but rather the western importers and resellers who order products to the lowest specs based purely on pricing (and the consumers that demand them)." (July 20, 2010)


http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...nes-12546.html
"We fine the shanks on the Rocnas down as much as we dare, and any alternative material without drastic design modifications would not be acceptable." (January 30, 2008)

There's lots of entertaining reading by going back to old posts.

Frank

Wow. This just gets worse and worse.

[sailorboy1]

It was CS's constant serve bad mouthing of all other anchors that resulted in my getting a Manson Surpreme earlier this year when I had been more inclined to get a Rocna.

Thanks Craig as that was before all this crap came to light :-)

[catty]

Looks as though Grant King has had the charges against him , thrown out.

Great to hear.

Looks as though there is now a lot more to come out in the wash. Maybe something about bribeing RINA officials.

Regards

[Cormorant]

catty -- do you have a link to a news story on that?

[idpnd]

This info and the corruption allegations were divulged by G King on the ybw forums.. A new turn in the soap opera..

[GordMay]

See Post #774 ➥ Rocna Anchors acquired by Canada Metal Pacific - Page 78 - Yachting and Boating World Forums

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Delfin

I doubt that CPM will be directing the factory to substitute cheaper, weaker steel as Holdfast did, but what they are doing is peddling the idea that Peter Smith was wrong when he insisted for years that his design was dependent on a minimum yield steel of 750 MPa (Bisalloy 80), and that what he really meant to say was that steel that is 20% weaker (Q620, MPa 620) is just fine.

Since you can buy an analog of the Rocna made of stronger steel - the Manson - or other designs that always seem to test at the top of the pack - the Fortress - buying a Rocna probably isn't 'risky', just foolish. Why pay more for less?

If CPM positions the Rocna as a lower quality knockoff of the Manson or Sarca and sells it for an appropriate price, it might be an option for people who don't anchor much. However, if they truly intend to make it of lower quality steel, while insisting that is "good enough", and charge the same price you'd pay for a proper piece of equipment, then they should be avoided.

That's too harsh, in my opinion.

CPM are now making Rocnas out of 620 steel, which seems to be about 20% less strong than the Bisplate 800 the Mansons are made of.

I think that's probably strong enough, sort of -- there have not been any problems reported as far as I know. If you're offered a new CPM-made Rocna at a good price, then why not? They are good anchors. If the price is the same as a Manson, however, then why wouldn't you buy the Manson, which is made of stronger materials and has similar performance? I would.

Or you could splurge and buy a Spade, which is what I am doing after having returned my Rocna. It's much more expensive.

Delfin mentioned the Fortress -- IMHO this is no substitute for a regular anchor (although the Fortress guys dispute this). I don't know a single person who would use a Fortress for a regular, overnight, bower anchor, although they are the ideal and perfect kedge with their awesome holding power (and they are very beautifully made, too, by the way). My kedge is a Fortress FX55.

[S/V Alchemy]

Yes, they do dispute this, and given that plenty of professional and rescue craft like USCG use them as primaries, maybe they've got a point.

I use a Fortress FX-23 as a regular overnight anchor here on Lake Ontario. I haven't put it to any sort of particular test over 20 knots of apparent wind as there's no need to do so around here...if it's going to be bad, I would rather head for a wall or dock behind a breakwater than "test my anchor" all night.

I'm taking this anchor as a lunchhook, a kedge/stern anchor and a storm anchor offshore for a 41 foot, 16 tonne steel cutter in a few years, but that's more because I already have a larger primary and because I have the capacity to carry spares and a variety of 'em.

I'm quite pleased with it for general use for a 33 foot, 9,000 lb. sloop (my current ride). It's pretty oversized for that, but "just right" for secondary use on the bigger boat.

I agree that the fit and finish is superb and shows that American manufacturing still has good things to show the world. I actually found myself stopping and admiring the thing as I assembled it on my workbench. Then I put it on my bike cart and rode it down to my boat.

Yeah, I said "anchor" and "bike cart". Until you actually use the Fortress, you don't quite grasp how asking a ten-year old to "lower the anchor" is plausible.

Anyone interested in my first encounter with a Fortress can read a June 2011 blog entry here:The world encompassed: Rode work ahead

As for the Rocna, if CMP doesn't re-spec them to the identical strength of the Manson Supreme, I don't know how they can expect to sell any. You buy an anchor based on ultimate stresses on the whole system, from anchor to deckgear, not whether it's "OK" to 40 knots and then makes a pretzel.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

... Delfin mentioned the Fortress -- IMHO this is no substitute for a regular anchor (although the Fortress guys dispute this). I don't know a single person who would use a Fortress for a regular, overnight, bower anchor ...

I did - happily so.
In good Bahamian sand.

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by GordMay

I did - happily so.
In good Bahamian sand.

Walking around my marina, I see as many Fortress on bows of pretty big boats as I see Rocnas. And, the Coast Guard uses them as primary even though I doubt weight is a concern for a 75' steel cutter. The idea that Fortress are not used as bowers seems to be belied by the simple fact that they are used as bowers. Not much more to add to that.....