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Old 28-11-2011, 21:47   #166
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Re: A Second Wind for Rocna

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Walking around my marina, I see as many Fortress on bows of pretty big boats as I see Rocnas. And, the Coast Guard uses them as primary even though I doubt weight is a concern for a 75' steel cutter. The idea that Fortress are not used as bowers seems to be belied by the simple fact that they are used as bowers. Not much more to add to that.....
LOL. Very well put. I'd say in marinas in this part, probably one or two rocnas to be seen as primary anchors out of a hundred boats, but maybe 20 danforth style (like the fortress). Also very few fortress. I don't think the uptake of new generation anchors has been very strong in these parts. Mostly CQR, Bruce, and Danforth.
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Old 29-11-2011, 00:06   #167
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Re: A Second Wind for Rocna

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Walking around my marina, I see as many Fortress on bows of pretty big boats as I see Rocnas. And, the Coast Guard uses them as primary even though I doubt weight is a concern for a 75' steel cutter. The idea that Fortress are not used as bowers seems to be belied by the simple fact that they are used as bowers. Not much more to add to that.....
People evidently choose different anchors in your area than mine. Around here it is said - and "it is said" doesn't prove anything; could just be a prejudice - that they will pop out and not reset in a wind or tide shift. It may or may not be true, but I guess no one is eager to test it.
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Old 29-11-2011, 06:28   #168
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Re: A Second Wind for Rocna

We have cruised down the river system from Iniana and along the gulf coast on our way south. We are in Steinhatchee FL right now. Hopefully our nest weather window opens tomorrow. The vast majority of anchors I have seen on boats are Danforth style. It will be interesting to see if that changes the further south we get. I have a Manson Supreme on the bow roller, and everyone asks what it is. Some shake their head, others are interested.
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Old 29-11-2011, 06:57   #169
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Re: A Second Wind for Rocna

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...that they will pop out and not reset in a wind or tide shift. It may or may not be true, but I guess no one is eager to test it.
I have seen it LOTS of time.

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Old 29-11-2011, 07:12   #170
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Re: A Second Wind for Rocna

First, let me acknowledge that we have a Fortress FX-37 and specifically purchased it for going cruising. This anchor is a very important part of our gear. However, we do not use it as our primary anchor.

While danforth type anchors may work well as a primary anchor in pure sand or thin mud, they can be a danger in direction shifts in weeds, sand with coral bits or heavy mud. The picture I posted above explains why. This guy was the only person who dragged in the anchorage during a sudden windshift and the only one using a Danforth (we saw most of the other anchors as boats came/left).

Cruising the Caribbean, you will see a lot of French boats with danforth-style FOB anchors. You will get really familiar with them because a lot of them will be banging into your boat as their anchor fails to reset in a windshift when a bit of dead coral lodges in their flukes.

It is just our personal experience, but the most common dragging scenario we observe out here is a danforth-style during a windshift. Followed very closely by CQR's in general - windshift or not (I know I will get flamed for that statement, but it reflects my observation). In general, I feel secure when someone with any appropriate sized anchor other than those two set in next to us.

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Old 29-11-2011, 07:24   #171
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Re: A Second Wind for Rocna

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
anchor fails to reset in a windshift when a bit of dead coral lodges in their flukes.

It is just our personal experience, but the most common dragging scenario we observe out here is a danforth-style during a windshift.
I used to have a danforth as well and experienced this exact thing. Jammed flukes and no reset.
For some reason I thought the big money paid out for a fortress would make them better, but in reality, they are just a danforth and suffer from the same problem.
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Old 29-11-2011, 07:43   #172
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Re: A Second Wind for Rocna

Based upon numerous comments heard over the years from boaters in our hurricane region down here in south Florida, the observations of a retired 40+ year US Navy soil mechanics and anchor design expert, and back up support from the Sailing Foundation "multi-directional" pull test, it is our firm belief that a well-buried Fortress anchor is no more likely to pull out during a wind shift than any other type of anchor.

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Old 29-11-2011, 08:16   #173
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Re: A Second Wind for Rocna

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Also very few fortress. I don't think the uptake of new generation anchors has been very strong in these parts. Mostly CQR, Bruce, and Danforth.
Well, if you never have a serious problem dragging, the only time you are likely to buy a new anchor is that one year you forget to replace the mousing on the shackle, and you don't know any divers!

From what I can tell, people are generally curious about reports of better holding, lighter weight, etc. as claimed by the newer designs...but if they are fair-weather anchorers who have tools and techniques that work, they are unlikely to swap.

On the other hand, younger people buying a single-owner boat from someone who has aged out of the activity can certainly be persuaded to at least check out the newer designs as part of a general updating of all the boat's systems. I'd say "dragging anchors into the 21st century", but it's probably misleading to phrase it that way in a Rocna thread.
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Old 29-11-2011, 08:21   #174
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Re: A Second Wind for Rocna

I use Fortress anchors, although my primary is a Rocna. While I agree that a well-buried Fortress is less likely to pull out than most anchors, the problem seems to be whether it will foul when attempting to reset after a shift, or whether it will reset at all.

That said, there are anchoring situations, especially when the anchor is used as a kedge, when the Fortress is superior to any other anchor. While I no longer own a Bruce or a Delta, there will always be a place in my chain locker for a Fortress.
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Old 29-11-2011, 08:31   #175
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Re: A Second Wind for Rocna

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Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
Walking around my marina, I see as many Fortress on bows of pretty big boats as I see Rocnas..
I did a walk around a marina in Greece recently and this is what I found.

It was done at Leros marina. My impression was most of the boats were privately owned rather than charter boats. There were a few long distance cruising boats but most would cruse the summer only.
I counted all the anchors I saw which was about 80% on the hard and a few stored on the water. I did count stern anchors.

Delta 36
CQR 11
Bugel copy 11
Rocna 9
Spade 8
Brittany 8
Plough 7
Kobra 6
Bruce 4
Claw 3
Max 3
Danforth 2
Bulgari 1
Dreadnought 1


Note those with more expensive anchors may have kept them from view
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Old 29-11-2011, 08:39   #176
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Re: A Second Wind for Rocna

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Based upon numerous comments heard over the years from boaters in our hurricane region down here in south Florida, the observations of a retired 40+ year US Navy soil mechanics and anchor design expert, and back up support from the Sailing Foundation "multi-directional" pull test, it is our firm belief that a well-buried Fortress anchor is no more likely to pull out during a wind shift than any other type of anchor.

Respectfully,
Brian Sheehan

Fortress Marine Anchors
Brian,

As we've discussed before our Fortress un-set and did not re-set and we almost lost our boat. This was in soft Maine mud using the mud palms and about 8:1 scope, for the tide, at the time it broke free.

The night before we had seen strong winds and the anchor had been set at 80% reverse throttle, which can exceed 1000 pounds of setting force applied to the anchor on our boat. We did not budge an inch, and I would not expect to.

The winds subsided and a strong high pressure system moved in and we swung 180. With the winds back into the 20's the anchor un-set and did not re-set. A quick dive for the engine panel was the only thing that kept us off the hard granite ledge that morning.

I love my Fortress as a dedicated directional pull anchor, stern, kedge etc., wee keep it on-board, but it will never again be used as our primary.

That event was not the first time it failed to re-set on a wind or tide shift but was the last time it was allowed to...

Can they re-set? Sure they "can" and they do. Will it be as reliable as some of the newer generation anchors at re-setting? Not in my experience or the experience of many seasoned cruisers who've had similar experiences. Great anchor just not ever going to be a bower for me....
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Old 29-11-2011, 09:00   #177
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Re: A Second Wind for Rocna

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Originally Posted by Fortress View Post
Based upon numerous comments heard over the years from boaters in our hurricane region down here in south Florida, the observations of a retired 40+ year US Navy soil mechanics and anchor design expert, and back up support from the Sailing Foundation "multi-directional" pull test, it is our firm belief that a well-buried Fortress anchor is no more likely to pull out during a wind shift than any other type of anchor.

Respectfully,
Brian Sheehan

Fortress Marine Anchors
Yes, I believe that statement is true when the anchors are well buried. Unfortunately, well-buried usually requires hurricane force winds (or at least larger forces than typical cruising boats can apply). Anchors set well using engine power from a cruising boat at most experience forces equivalent to about 15-20kts of wind, which sets them well, but does not bury them to the extent that they will not pull out in a wind shift. And pure sand or soft mud are the only media that these anchors have a chance to set deeply in using normal engine pull. These are also the media where I would be less concerned about wind shift resets.

Based on our experiences with every day anchoring in different bottom types, danforth-style anchors have more resetting problems than other styles - particularly the delta and newer gen styles. I have seen a lot of these cases, and others have related similar experiences in this and other threads.

While we may not have been able to bury our anchors in sand or mud during hurricanes, or be able to mathematically prove that when buried to 3 meters, they won't pull out, or have a tug boat to set them with, we do have much experience with using, and seeing them used, in everyday anchoring situations through a wide variety of cruising grounds.

And as I have mentioned to you before, your anchor is a very important part of our boat and I wouldn't be without one. I can't speak highly enough about your design, engineering and support. However, it has an appropriate use for us, which is not as a primary.

If it helps, I would be less concerned with a boat anchoring near us using a Fortress than a FOB or brittany.

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Old 29-11-2011, 09:26   #178
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Re: A Second Wind for Rocna

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fortress View Post
Based upon numerous comments heard over the years from boaters in our hurricane region down here in south Florida, the observations of a retired 40+ year US Navy soil mechanics and anchor design expert, and back up support from the Sailing Foundation "multi-directional" pull test, it is our firm belief that a well-buried Fortress anchor is no more likely to pull out during a wind shift than any other type of anchor.

Respectfully,
Brian Sheehan

Fortress Marine Anchors
Well, the operative phrase might be "well-buried". I would not be at all surprised if Fortresses are quite difficult to get well buried, due to large fluke area and light weight.

They bite so hard, maybe it lulls people into a sense of complacency and they don't go on to patiently dig them in.

Maybe if people took time to slowly dig them in -- they wouldn't release in wind shifts. Maybe. Although the light weight, which is such a boon for a kedge, surely works against the Fortress getting well buried.

I don't know -- and all I know is that it is not going to be me, who experiments with it. My Fortress is a perfect kedge, and the Spade I hope I will receive soon is the perfect bower (as I know from almost a decade of experience with a Spade on the previous boat). That's a formula I don't intend to mess with. Where anchoring is concerned, I am not an experimenter! I am, on the contrary, very, very conservative. But I would certainly be eager to hear the results of others' experiments!
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Old 29-11-2011, 09:54   #179
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Re: A Second Wind for Rocna

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Yes, I believe that statement is true when the anchors are well buried. Unfortunately, well-buried usually requires hurricane force winds (or at least larger forces than typical cruising boats can apply). Anchors set well using engine power from a cruising boat at most experience forces equivalent to about 15-20kts of wind, which sets them well, but does not bury them to the extent that they will not pull out in a wind shift.
And therein lies the key issue. The Fortress/Danforth type anchor has by comparison two larger and more massive flukes that will require greater power to bury it deeply into a sea bottom, as opposed to a denser plow type anchor which has a single narrow fluke......and as noted above, that greater power might not be possible with a typical cruising boat engine.

The below comment from the Sailing Foundation test illustrates this fact. The Fortress model referenced is the 24lb FX-37:

Site 3. Inner Port Madison Harbor. Generally Port Madison was good holding. A thick mud bottom typical of many northwest anchorages. Some shell and a little weed. Chuck Hawley of West Marine reported it was considerably more firm than the San Francisco ooze tested in 1990. It could best be described as sticky mud. For example, the Fortress when set in the large angle "mud" position did not set at all. The flukes apparently did not penetrate. When the flukes were set in the shallow position for harder bottom it immediately set to 4410, 3320 and 4230 lbs.

The Fortress set so deep that the rode had to be hauled in to 1:1 and significant power applied to rode by the 83,000-pound tug to break it free. It is doubtful that a sailboat would have windlass power to break it out. Perhaps large primary winches or a rising tide might be adequate. However, it is also doubtful that a sailboat could have set the anchor that deep in less than a full hurricane.
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Old 29-11-2011, 10:16   #180
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Re: A Second Wind for Rocna

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They bite so hard, maybe it lulls people into a sense of complacency and they don't go on to patiently dig them in.

Maybe if people took time to slowly dig them in -- they wouldn't release in wind shifts. Maybe. Although the light weight, which is such a boon for a kedge, surely works against the Fortress getting well buried.
Patience is indeed the operative virtue when using a Fortress. Up in the Sacramento Delta, with a vegetated bottom, I have learned to let my Fortress stern anchor sit for at least five minutes after deploying it before attempting to set. That gave it time to work through the vegetation on its own.

I've watched a powerboat attempt to set a Fortress where I suspect the hook never once hit the sand. This guy started backing up so quickly that I'm certain the anchor was streaming behind him in midwater, the way a fishing lure does when you troll it too fast.

Patience. With a light anchor like a Fortress, you've got to let it find the bottom.
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