65' of chain - right amount for Pacific Northwest with no windlass?

[basssears]

Back story: Gulf 32 (pilothouse, 16,000# displacement), new boat to us, going to be anchoring pretty conservatively for the first few years.
Front story (so to speak), does 65’ of chain and then 3 strand rode sound like a good “starter” setup for San Juan Islands / Gulf Islands / Pacific Northwest? I do not have a windlass, and won’t have the kitty for one for a while (will require some custom work to mount best I can tell from pictures of other Gulf 32’s), so I can’t go all chain (which would be my preference). More going on general amount of chain for my question, but if specifics make a difference I’m leaning towards 3/8” G4 @ 65’ and 5/8” 3 strand @ 300’.


I’m trying to strike a balance between a decent setup for now that doesn’t break the bank (buying a bunch of chain that I then won’t be using when I go all chain with a windlass) or the back (I’m pretty fit, but I don’t want such a heavy setup that I start to get reluctant about raising / resetting / setting anchor).


My current setup is junk (not even sure it qualifies to be used as a stern /backup anchor setup, of which I have none right now) so I’m having to replace everything… no I don’t want to cheap out on this pretty important piece of safety equipment but cost is an issue.


So would twice my boat length’s worth of chain do good things for me as far as catenary and protecting the rode while still being manageable by hand? Or is it “either ten feet or 300 feet of chain” to make it effective?


Thanks in advance, hope I’m not starting another “anchoring thread”…

[Macblaze]

If you are sticking to the established anchorages and not wandering north of Vancouver Island then it should be plenty. After a year of sailing up and down we generally didn't anchor in much more than 25 feet of water and rarely in more that 30. We have 105 feet of chain and quite often just let out around 120 feet regardless of the depth so save us having to rig our rope snubber.

The only thing I will say is that in some of the very crowded anchorages the differences in swing between all chain and all rode made for some interesting anchoring antics, depending on who was in first.

Enjoy!

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by basssears

I do not have a windlass, and won’t have the kitty for one for a while , so I can’t go all chain (which would be my preference).

What difference does not having a windlass make on having all chain or only 65'?

You still have to lift the anchor and the depth length of chain up by hand. So even if you have 350' of chain in the end you normally lift up the anchor and 20-30' of chain.

The only reason to not have all chain is weight in the bow.

[basssears]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

What difference does not having a windlass make on having all chain or only 65'?

You still have to lift the anchor and the depth length of chain up by hand. So even if you have 350' of chain in the end you normally lift up the anchor and 20-30' of chain.

The only reason to not have all chain is weight in the bow.

Well the way I look at it isn't just max weight at any one time but total work done / weight moved... if I go 7:1 in 30 feet of water (not unrealistic with 10'+ tidal range and me being conservative new by) that's 180' of rode that has to come from sea floor (plus the 30' which is part way down)... with all chain I would be hauling 180' of chain which is 180 lbs total... with 65' of rode and 115' of 5/8" 3 strand I'm moving 65# of chain and about 13# of rode for 78# total...less than 1/2 the total work if I, say, don't like my first set and haul it all back up to try again.

Is this not an appropriate way to look at it?

[basssears]

Originally Posted by Macblaze

If you are sticking to the established anchorages and not wandering north of Vancouver Island then it should be plenty. After a year of sailing up and down we generally didn't anchor in much more than 25 feet of water and rarely in more that 30. We have 105 feet of chain and quite often just let out around 120 feet regardless of the depth so save us having to rig our rope snubber.

The only thing I will say is that in some of the very crowded anchorages the differences in swing between all chain and all rode made for some interesting anchoring antics, depending on who was in first.

Enjoy!

Thanks, much appreciated... this is new boat to us and were doing our best to cut our attachment to state park mooring balls and explore some more. The crowded anchorages are what stress me out.

Were you hand hauling or donyou have windlass?

[Stu Jackson]

3/8" chain sounds a tad too much, but lots depends on where you anchor (i.e., depths) as well as the conditions that you expect to encounter (i.e., wind strength).

Here's one way to view your anchoring system:

Anchor System Sizing Tables (Reply #6) & Why Swivels are a bad idea Ground Tackle & Anchor System Sizing TABLES & Swivels

As far as chain length, here's what a friend of mine wrote after sailing his Catalina 34 from Vancouver to Mexico:

The Rocna. All 20kg of it with 100ft of chain. The rest of the world can debate all they like. When I pull into a place like Bodega Bay at midnight and the fog is so thick I can't see the jetty 50 feet away to make an entrance, I drop my hook in the rolling ocean swells with the surf crashing (Foster says it's like staying in a cheap Best Western beside the highway), and I sleep. And in the morning I have a windlass to pull the beast up and I wouldn't trade it for anything. (I also wouldn't add more chain - this works perfectly in 25 to 30 feet of water - you let all the chain out and you tie off nylon at the preferred scope and don't bother with snubbers and chain hooks and all that stuff...)

While he did have a windlass, one could make the point that unless it is windy when you weigh anchor, you can still do it by hand.

Good luck. Actually, luck should have nothing to do with it, you need to DESIGN the SYSTEM based on what you anticipate.

[basssears]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

3/8" chain sounds a tad too much, but lots depends on where you anchor (i.e., depths) as well as the conditions that you expect to encounter (i.e., wind strength).

Here's one way to view your anchoring system:

Anchor System Sizing Tables (Reply #6) & Why Swivels are a bad idea Ground Tackle & Anchor System Sizing TABLES & Swivels

As far as chain length, here's what a friend of mine wrote after sailing his Catalina 34 from Vancouver to Mexico:

The Rocna. All 20kg of it with 100ft of chain. The rest of the world can debate all they like. When I pull into a place like Bodega Bay at midnight and the fog is so thick I can't see the jetty 50 feet away to make an entrance, I drop my hook in the rolling ocean swells with the surf crashing (Foster says it's like staying in a cheap Best Western beside the highway), and I sleep. And in the morning I have a windlass to pull the beast up and I wouldn't trade it for anything. (I also wouldn't add more chain - this works perfectly in 25 to 30 feet of water - you let all the chain out and you tie off nylon at the preferred scope and don't bother with snubbers and chain hooks and all that stuff...)

While he did have a windlass, one could make the point that unless it is windy when you weigh anchor, you can still do it by hand.

Good luck. Actually, luck should have nothing to do with it, you need to DESIGN the SYSTEM based on what you anticipate.

Thanks Stu, gives me a little more rigorous way of going about sizing. I like your friend's quote, makes lots of sense to me.

I guess my next question then is how to figure what I anticipate conditions wise. Shoulder season in Pacific northwest can easily blow mid 40's but I have absolutely no plans on being in anchorage for that would be in my slip or transient marina. But sh*t happens and I could get stuck out in that, and this will be my biggest setup (no dedicated storm anchor) so I guess I should plkan for that and work backwards...

[Paul L]

5/16 in G4 chain would be fine and less weight.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by basssears

Well the way I look at it isn't just max weight at any one time but total work done / weight moved... if I go 7:1 in 30 feet of water (not unrealistic with 10'+ tidal range and me being conservative new by) that's 180' of rode that has to come from sea floor (plus the 30' which is part way down)... with all chain I would be hauling 180' of chain which is 180 lbs total... with 65' of rode and 115' of 5/8" 3 strand I'm moving 65# of chain and about 13# of rode for 78# total...less than 1/2 the total work if I, say, don't like my first set and haul it all back up to try again.

Is this not an appropriate way to look at it?

Rarely use 7:1 with all chain. Rarely have to pull up and redrop anchor once you have done it enough. Putting loose chain into the well isn't that much work.

But when you really it nothing beats all chain! And that's the only real goal of your ground tackle.

Your 65' is probably good most of the time. But using the "no windlass" as the reason I feel is just a way to talk yourself into it.

BTW - I also feel 5/16" G4 is fine for you.

[Lepke]

The big reason for chain is the bottom can be rough on line and chain weight does a better job of holding down the anchor shank so it doesn't lift and work the anchor out. The book I was taught from called for 4:1 for all chain and 7:1 for cable. You'd be closer to 4:1.
While I prefer all chain, if money is tight, you could get buy with less than 65' of chain. I would put my money into an anchor that is much better than the minimum. Maybe aluminum for hand recovery.
In stormy conditions or anchoring in swells, you can shackle on a weight where the chain and line meet. In the old days mariners used a cannon.

[huhns]

To reinforce what sailorboy1 wrote, when I begin to haul in my anchor, I am basically pulling my boat to the point where my anchor is wedged on the bottom. The effort has very little to do with the weight of the rode and very much to do with the weight and windage of my boat (assuming I don't use the engine or sails to help me get to the anchor point). Once I get to the anchor point, then the effort needed depends on the weight of the anchor and the remaining rode, plus the effort needed to free the anchor from the bottom.

[basssears]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Rarely use 7:1 with all chain. Rarely have to pull up and redrop anchor once you have done it enough.

Good to know on all chain scope. As for second sentence, well part of the issue here is (other than our 20' trailer sailor) I have about 15 nights ever on anchor, and that's all tropical sand easy conditions, never done it in opaque tidal waters.

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Your 65' is probably good most of the time. But using the "no windlass" as the reason I feel is just a way to talk yourself into it.

BTW - I also feel 5/16" G4 is fine for you.

OK, thanks for your input, I appreciate it. Maybe I just suck it up and call it 4:1 and go with more chain, although I do like the idea of chain / rode combo not needing to mess with snubber every time.

[basssears]

Originally Posted by Lepke

The big reason for chain is the bottom can be rough on line and chain weight does a better job of holding down the anchor shank so it doesn't lift and work the anchor out. The book I was taught from called for 4:1 for all chain and 7:1 for cable. You'd be closer to 4:1.
While I prefer all chain, if money is tight, you could get buy with less than 65' of chain. I would put my money into an anchor that is much better than the minimum. Maybe aluminum for hand recovery.
In stormy conditions or anchoring in swells, you can shackle on a weight where the chain and line meet. In the old days mariners used a cannon.

I think I can live (financially) with 65'... and I might go for more and less rode, still working on that. Plan is a 35# Mantus as I know it fits and know it works well on Gulf 32 based on another owner's comments (seems those trivial things are the closest I can come on making decision among the new style anchors... and no, don't want to start an anchor thread here!).

I do have a kellet on board, two lead balls that I can drop down the rode as needed and / or secure to chain before dropping, so that will help too. It's more the abrasion resistance I'm looking for and how to get to the point where I generally only have chain on the sea bed, no rode.

[Cruisingscotts]

A good rule of thumb is for line/chain rode being pulled by hand is 1.5 the deepest depth you "regularly" plan to anchor in of chain. In the PNW all the chain is doing is aiding in setting the anchor and giving you chaffe protection on the bottom. The entire rode needs to be strong enough to do the job, more chain doesn't gain you anything. Start small and adjust as need be down the rode.

[basssears]

Originally Posted by Cruisingscotts

A good rule of thumb is for line/chain rode being pulled by hand is 1.5 the deepest depth you "regularly" plan to anchor in of chain. In the PNW all the chain is doing is aiding in setting the anchor and giving you chaffe protection on the bottom. The entire rode needs to be strong enough to do the job, more chain doesn't gain you anything.

Thanks, sounds like good rule of thumb...

Originally Posted by Cruisingscotts

Start small and adjust as need be down the rode.

Down the "rode", not "road"... ahh, anchor puns, what could be better