65' of chain - right amount for Pacific Northwest with no windlass?

[Captain Puget]

Similar boat - Rawson 30PH ....I am currently upgrading to an electric windlass from a manual Lofrans horizontal and a similar chain/ 3-strand rode (probably a Maxwell, but still working out the mounting next week).

If you want the manual Lofrans as a cost compromise and save yourself some sweat and sore hands, I will be selling it soon.

Based in Anacortes, so close.

[Scout 30]

Originally Posted by basssears

Yes, this plus cost is what's the hold up for me for the next year or two for a windlass. Seems simple enough, save up and buy the windlass... but then, at least off the top of my head, for me there would still be:
1) build burly platform for windlass to sit on
2) modify chain locker lid to close around said platform
3) install and secure separate battery for windlass
4) run heavy gauge wire from windlass to other battery banks
5) install automatic switch to charge windlass battery when engine is running but not otherwise.

So, a non-trivial project for sure. I have briefly considered manual windlass but that only gets rid of #3 / #4 / #5, the three easier steps for me for our boat.

When you do get around to installing one I'd just run cables up to the windlass solenoid & forget the second battery in the bow. Saves on cost, complexity & weight up in the bow where you really don't want it. Also, the vertical windlasses are typically designed to install on a deck. The windlass will include an up/down switch & the solenoid that goes up in the bow so all you need to buy is the cables, typically 4 - 6 awg, which have come down in price. Keep the motor running when you're running the windlass & there should be plenty of amps to get the job done.

[alctel]

I am in the same area and I have 60' of G4 5/16 chain and 200 foot of line rope. With a 45lb Mantus.

No windless, but I can normally manage to get the thing up by hand. I don't think a windless for me is worth it, the work, cost and loss of foredeck space isn't a good tradeoff.

[TrentePieds]

Hasn't been mentioned and it's prolly not obvious to those who don't know these waters. Given the tidal range around here, it is often the case that if you anchor on the high water at 1:3, then on the low water you'll be at 1:7. Doesn't make much practical difference in places like Pirates Cove in terms of need for holding power - but as to swing in a crowded anchorage, it does!

If I anchor on the high and low is at 0530 I'll get up a coupla times to shorten scope so nobody will be swearing at me :-)

Sometimes, if the wind comes up, you're better just to go out into the Straits since you're gonna be awake anyway.

TrentePieds

[contrail]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Rarely use 7:1 with all chain. Rarely have to pull up and redrop anchor once you have done it enough. Putting loose chain into the well isn't that much work.

But when you really it nothing beats all chain! And that's the only real goal of your ground tackle.

Your 65' is probably good most of the time. But using the "no windlass" as the reason I feel is just a way to talk yourself into it.

BTW - I also feel 5/16" G4 is fine for you.

Pretty much agree with Sailorboy. The standard progression is to convince yourself that a short piece of chain, attached to line, is going to work. Pretty soon you swap for a longer piece of chain and then get fed up and get all chain. I have seen that chain of events many times, and did it myself. Only way to avoid that is to mostly stay in marinas! How long does the chain wind up being? On the west coast, for serious cruising, probably 300 feet, for deep anchorages or bad weather. Yes, that's a lot, and I agree that 5/16 G4 will do the trick very well.

As for pulling it up, I sailed a 1980 Hunter (very nice boat, by the way) for years in California and Mexico and once went 18 months without putting the boat in a slip. Almost always at anchor, all chain, and no windlass and no problem. How? My boat was set up with an anchor locker that opened on deck. I simply opened the locker and sat with my butt on the aft edge and my feet pushing against the forward edge. I then rocked back and forth from my hips, pulling up two feet each time, which was way faster than the guys with the manual windlasses, and dropping the chain in the locker between my knees. Never gave me a bit of problem, well into my 50's. I would still do it the same way, if I had the same boat.

I always put on a pair of heavy garden gloves (Home Depot) which would last maybe four to six months, as much for lowering the anchor as raising it. I installed a pawl (boat talk for ratchet) at the end of my bow roller, so the chain wouldn't run out between pulls. If there was a lot of wind, I just put the boat gently in gear until it barely took the load, went forward and pulled. The weight of the chain kept the boat going straight. Eventually, I cut the chain into one piece 200 feet long, and two pieces that were 50 feet each. I usedt a very high strength G4 chain joining link (or even a shackle) to put between the lengths, as there was no windlass to worry about. This got a lot of weight out of the bow of the boat, and I usually found the 200 feet to be enough.

Seriously, this system worked for years and years without any hitch, at all. I used a Bruce 33 anchor and sat out a direct hit by Hurricane Marty, in Puerto Escondido, Baja, with that set up and a kellet set on the chain. Didn't budge. Why people think they HAVE to have a windlass when they have all chain, I do not know. They probably have not worked out a way to just sit and rock, like I did. Sort of like rowing. Anyway, think it over if you have a chain locker that opens on deck, and give it a try. You could start with that 65 feet and then, later, buy another 200 with a joining link and be pretty well set. The chain is expensive, but the windlass will be you, thus free! Oh, by the way, I anchored in up to 70 feet that way, although my usual depth was 30-45 feet.

[basssears]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

If I anchor on the high and low is at 0530 I'll get up a coupla times to shorten scope so nobody will be swearing at me :-)

Aha, more good info to have, thanks... I was definitely factoring in the tidal ranges (i.e. as far as my minimum scope goes, I don't think I'll ever be anchored in less than 20' of water at high tide)... but I hadn't thought about the swinging as far as other boats around me... do you think it's pretty standard practice for others to get up and shorten scope at low tide?

[basssears]

Originally Posted by contrail

They probably have not worked out a way to just sit and rock, like I did. Sort of like rowing. Anyway, think it over if you have a chain locker that opens on deck, and give it a try. You could start with that 65 feet and then, later, buy another 200 with a joining link and be pretty well set. The chain is expensive, but the windlass will be you, thus free! Oh, by the way, I anchored in up to 70 feet that way, although my usual depth was 30-45 feet.

So not to bring up another potentially disastrous subject (anchor choice? catamaran vs monohull?) but I have been told that shackling chain together is a bad way to go... I take it some disagree?

I'd like to be able to do the above, really... start with the small amount of chain, see how hauling goes with my locker setup, and also importantly see how the boat feels with different amounts of weight in the bow, and then maybe move up to all chain or 200' of chain.

I hate to keep buying and changing stuff out, but the way I look at this one even if I buy new small amount of chain and rode for the bow, if I decide to change that out my stern anchor setup is still going to need some love so I would still have a use for the stuff I've bought.

[TrentePieds]

There are shackles and there are shackles. On grown-up ships the "shots" of chain are shackled with special shackles that will ride through the gypsy. That's the key.

If you are thinking of using "ordinary" shackles to make, say, 80 feet out of two forties, your gypsy is gonna give you a helluvan argument.

TrentePieds

[TrentePieds]

@#36:

No I don't think it's "common practice", let alone "standard practice". Sailormen who take pride in their boat-handling do it. There are many on the dark side who do it. But there are many, many folk on the water who have the money to buy a big hammer but not the wit or the patience to learn the fundamentals of seamanship.

Because "Cascadia" (Vancouver-Seattle) is so prosperous, and because we have an enormous number of "new Canadians" who bring us lotsa lovely bux from "off shore" you'll find in the "Salish Sea" a commensurate number of folk "in command" of boats for whom seafaring is not second nature - not a cultural given.

TrentePieds

[basssears]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Here's one way to view your anchoring system:

Anchor System Sizing Tables (Reply #6) & Why Swivels are a bad idea Ground Tackle & Anchor System Sizing TABLES & Swivels

Good luck. Actually, luck should have nothing to do with it, you need to DESIGN the SYSTEM based on what you anticipate.

Thanks again Stu, got me started on doing this a little more rigorously.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me now that I've studied more than nylon rode is the huge "weak link" as far as working load limit. Even at the 5/8" that some have suggested I go to I'm looking at it's 30% weaker than the 5/16" high test (although at 2700# still significantly above the 1800# force ABYC says I should expect for my size boat). Hmmm. Seems another vote for all chain...

[AD28]

an argument for mixed rode:

Tuning an Anchor Rode

[JPA Cate]

How do you store your stern line, I have seen rolls on stern pushpits and heard of people using garden hose reels too...
__________________

What Jim did on our first Insatiable, was to create a stern anchor locker. First you crawl back all the way to the stern. If you can't get there, forget this post. We used milk crates, cutting the bottom out of the top one, and lashing the two together. He cut a hole for a standard boat vent, and split the throat of the vent, so you could pull it out. Our stern rode was for an anchor, so not as long, probably, as you will want. He tied the bitter end off to the rudder tube. You feed the line in and just keep pushing on it till it's all gone, put the vent cowl back in, facing aft. In our case, the chain was the last to go in, but it all stays ready to go. Please PM me if you're interested in more detail.

Ann

[basssears]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

What Jim did on our first Insatiable, was to create a stern anchor locker. First you crawl back all the way to the stern. If you can't get there, forget this post. We used milk crates, cutting the bottom out of the top one, and lashing the two together. He cut a hole for a standard boat vent, and split the throat of the vent, so you could pull it out. Our stern rode was for an anchor, so not as long, probably, as you will want. He tied the bitter end off to the rudder tube. You feed the line in and just keep pushing on it till it's all gone, put the vent cowl back in, facing aft. In our case, the chain was the last to go in, but it all stays ready to go. Please PM me if you're interested in more detail.

Ann

Thanks Ann, that sounds like a good setup, and I think I know exactly what you're talking about... I should, since now that you jogged my memory I have a very similar setup for a stern anchor on our 20' trailer sailor. You'd think I would have thought of that already

[Scout 30]

Originally Posted by basssears

So not to bring up another potentially disastrous subject (anchor choice? catamaran vs monohull?) but I have been told that shackling chain together is a bad way to go... I take it some disagree?

I'd like to be able to do the above, really... start with the small amount of chain, see how hauling goes with my locker setup, and also importantly see how the boat feels with different amounts of weight in the bow, and then maybe move up to all chain or 200' of chain.

I hate to keep buying and changing stuff out, but the way I look at this one even if I buy new small amount of chain and rode for the bow, if I decide to change that out my stern anchor setup is still going to need some love so I would still have a use for the stuff I've bought.

https://coxengineering.sharepoint.com/Pages/Clinks.aspx

Looks like the forged Acco chain connector sold by West Marine performed the best although the Suncor stainless steel did pretty well & might last longer. I plan on adding chain too & have read through several threads. It looks like the people that have actually gone this route have had good results. I think it would be a good idea to check it regularly but I'm confident it's not a problem.

[basssears]

Thanks to everyone who gave input, lots of good information here and definitely helped me revise my thinking.

Still subject to modification (can't pull the trigger until end of next month anyway) but I think I have settled on my plan (based on my boat size and taking as an assumption max winds of 42 knots and probably not in anything deeper than 30-35') as:

45# Mantus anchor (one size up from previous plan, but margin for sleeping well as displacement was closer to the 45# than the 35#, and it's pilothouse with plenty of windage)
100' 5/16" G43 chain (rated 3900# working load)
200' 5/8" Sampson double braid rode (rated 1900# working)
3/8" alloy shackles to connect anchor to chain, chain to rode (3000# working)

I'm hoping I am happy with the double braid, I'm pretty careful with my chafe guards and 5/8" 3 strand would have been the weakest link at 1525# working load, which also meant it would come in below the (supposedly very conservative, but I'm very conservative) ABYC Horizontal Working Load chart that shows my boat could pull up to 1800# in 42 knots of wind.

Hopefully I can manage it without the windlass and, along with stern tie / anchor as needed and redundant anchor alarms should let me sleep well... for ~$1,300 I hope so!

So thanks again to everyone, this setup won't get a true test until a September or October trip through San Juans and Gulf Islands but will try to remember to report back on how it works.

-- Bass