Outboards are incredibly polluting - WOW

[CaptTom]

This thread is getting interesting. All from a stupid staged video. Nice!

I've heard the theory about eating meat contributing to our development as a species. Likewise, the domestication of grain crops and the advent of cooking. All of those things made us what we are today.

And yet we have some people wanting us to give up meas, give up grains (carbs) and some even want us to give up cooking. Seems to me that would be giving up what made us human in the first place. It's bad enough saying we should go back to the cave, but who wants to go back to being an ape?

Then, taking a broad view, we have to ask what it means to "ruin" a planet. For who? Is there anyone out there to care about the average temperature or sea level of this insignificant little planet during our brief existence as a species?

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Rumrace

Down on the River ... we spot an American mink moving 6 pups. The American Mink is extinct here!?

Bah. We have mink and muskrat on the shoreline in S Etobicoke. We once saw a mink take down a gosling at EYC, while we were having a drink there. And coyotes and foxes. Hawks have been visiting the park, and our yard, even.

The speed nature was recovering from our pollution was dream like.

It truly was [is] amazing to see how nature thrived during the pandemic. Or maybe it's just that we had the time to notice more. We also saw a big increase in the number of people using the parks, and this seems to be continuing. And for the most part, people have been responsible too, with very little trash left.

Of course, natural recovery in our urban parklands is one thing. Those streams are already fairly clean. There are few non-natural pressures there beyond the proximity of people and development, and the recovery is somewhat selective - we're not yet overrun with deer. And people have not been exactly welcoming to the coyotes or foxes, either. (I giggle when I see people walking their tiny dogs wearing those anti-coyote suits, like dayglo punks )



Of course, now consider some aerial photos of the tarsands operations. Or the number of abandoned but not remediated mines, oil wells, industrial sites, toxic waste dumps. Fertilizer runoff. The not infrequent oil spills. Toxic blobs at the bottoms of harbours. Plastic everywhere. And so on.

Ever watch weeds (or ants) forcing their way up through sidewalk joints, or breaking up abandoned asphalt? Nature's ability to overcome is truly remarkable. I hope people take this as a reason to stop making such a mess, rather than a green light to carry on as usual.

[purplesunrise]

We needed to replace our old Honda 20 HP outboard on our dinghy. I looked at the LEAST expensive electric outboard and even with non lithium batteries it would cost $7816 plus shipping so add another $300. The outboard weighs 85 pounds and the batteries weigh 103 pounds for a grand total of 188 pounds. That much weight plus the dinghy on our 45 foot catamaran would clearly strain the davits. There is another 20 HP electric on the market but the cost is $15,000 for the motor and lithium batteries.
So we opted for a new clean running Yamaha 20 HP four stroke with electronic fuel injection, electric start and weighing about 120 pounds. The cost was $4000 including shipping.
My conclusion is that like EVs, the electric outboard cost benefit ratio is way out of whack. Paying double the cost of a gas outboard for an electric that cannot go as far and would still need charging either from our solar array or generator, is not optimal. At some point as electrics enter the mainstream where economies of scale and size apply, it will be cost effective to have an electric outboard but we clearly are not there yet.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Anyone who wants to have a positive impact on the planet will have the greatest effect with two things:

1. Give up meat and dairy. Single biggest thing you can do not only for climate change, but also fresh water and land use. Eating meat is worse than any other thing we do to the planet.

2. Support carbon-free nuclear power against irrational superstitious radiophobes, and other forms of renewable energy, especially wind and solar. Agitate against coal power which is incredibly destructive and deadly.

With you on #2 re nuclear, but renewables have already proven their value, too. I don't know if #1 - quitting meat and dairy - is globally feasible, though I'm in favour of trying to reduce the amounts of meat and dairy one consumes. For health reasons as well as ecological ones.

According to the EPA, agriculture is not the single largest global source of greenhouse gases.



... energy-related sources still dominate.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Tetepare

I have a two stroke because I can lift it....

Yes, I think about this every time I consider a new motor. I can hardly manage to muscle around my existing 2-stroke. I can't image doing it with a motor which weighs 50 bs more.

[Kd9truck]

Ahhh The quintessential righteous and the wicked debate


You definitely have presented a point, should we sell them? Then we can row, but still the ribs are also polluting in there manufacture, if we throw them out where do they go? Or who do they go to.
I can not feed an electric motor with green power, and if I could what of its toxic foot print to make, ship and install the system? And where does the system it’s replacing go?

The global economies will be slowing that good and bad, it would be correct to say the best we can do is stop buying from regions that are still using fossil fuel to run industry, but what are the un intended consequences?

I fear we are chasing our tales with a lot of good intentions.

Going sailing to day
Cheers all.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by purplesunrise

We needed to replace our old Honda 20 HP outboard on our dinghy. I looked at the LEAST expensive electric outboard and even with non lithium batteries it would cost $7816 plus shipping so add another $300. The outboard weighs 85 pounds and the batteries weigh 103 pounds for a grand total of 188 pounds. That much weight plus the dinghy on our 45 foot catamaran would clearly strain the davits. There is another 20 HP electric on the market but the cost is $15,000 for the motor and lithium batteries.
So we opted for a new clean running Yamaha 20 HP four stroke with electronic fuel injection, electric start and weighing about 120 pounds. The cost was $4000 including shipping.
My conclusion is that like EVs, the electric outboard cost benefit ratio is way out of whack. Paying double the cost of a gas outboard for an electric that cannot go as far and would still need charging either from our solar array or generator, is not optimal. At some point as electrics enter the mainstream where economies of scale and size apply, it will be cost effective to have an electric outboard but we clearly are not there yet.

There is the rub....economics.

[Tupaia]

So let me get this straight. I go to the grocery store and buy a lb of sliced ham (fake meat protein if you like) wrapped in plastic, a loaf of bread in a plastic bag, a gallon of milk (or prcessed fruit juice) in a plastic jug, a pack of napkins wrapped in plastic, a Greek salad in a plastic container, a plastic bottle of mustard and a plastic bottle of ketchup and they won't give me a plastic bag to carry it home because the plastic bag is bad for the environment.

Shamelessly plagiarised.

There are far more pressing ecological beneficial adjustments we could make than worrying about a few outboard powered dinghies.

Super yachts, mega yachts, log burners, the school run . . . .

[Dooglas]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

.........what percentage of meat consumed by humans comes from other than the "industrial food system"? 1%?

Since this issue was raised concerning seafood, the answer is actually - the majority. Yes, avoid netpen raised Atlantic salmon and farm pond raised catfish, but most seafood is not "industrially" produced. Now moving toward more sustainable management of fish and shell fish is a separate discussion, and we have a ways to go there alright.

[zstine]

The engines are running, so this is sorta false advertising. The cloudiness from the ICE engines is bubbles from exhaust in the water. If the engines were stopped after 15min, I doubt you would be able to see any difference. That said, electric is much cleaner, if you can deal with the limits in range and have solar to recharge them.

[Boatyarddog]

Originally Posted by Chotu

As long as you are charging off solar, that’s a valid point.

If you are charging that electric outboard off a generator, or the grid, you’re just putting the same exact pollution into the air instead of the water.

Many states have Hydro as a percentage of total output for the state.
Washington 27% hydro.
This must be considered.
Solar in California, as well other states with alternative power.

I agree with Chotu, basically.
But, it does matter where the energy is produced.

I refuse to work on 2 stroke engines any longer.
These are the worst offenders!
Boatyarddog

[Boatyarddog]

Originally Posted by zstine

The engines are running, so this is sorta false advertising. The cloudiness from the ICE engines is bubbles from exhaust in the water. If the engines were stopped after 15min, I doubt you would be able to see any difference. That said, electric is much cleaner, if you can deal with the limits in range and have solar to recharge them.

Disagree!
You cannot say a 2 stroke is cleaner in any sense.
Non factual comment. Those "bubbles" harbor hydrocarbons, like you can't believe.
Care to test the emissions?
Raw unburned fuel, and oil.
That's what your seeing as cloudiness, not bubbles.
Boatyarddog

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by CaptTom

This thread is getting interesting. All from a stupid staged video. Nice!

I've heard the theory about eating meat contributing to our development as a species. Likewise, the domestication of grain crops and the advent of cooking. All of those things made us what we are today.

And yet we have some people wanting us to give up meas, give up grains (carbs) and some even want us to give up cooking. Seems to me that would be giving up what made us human in the first place. It's bad enough saying we should go back to the cave, but who wants to go back to being an ape?

Then, taking a broad view, we have to ask what it means to "ruin" a planet. For who? Is there anyone out there to care about the average temperature or sea level of this insignificant little planet during our brief existence as a species?

Here’s a facile alternative viewpoint:
“The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race” ~ by Jared Diamond* [1999]
The advent of agriculture was a watershed moment for the human race. It may also have been our greatest blunder.
Forced to choose between limiting population, or trying to increase food production, we chose the latter, and ended up with starvation, warfare, and tyranny.
More ➥ https://www.discovermagazine.com/pla...e#.UpIvTtIvWq8

* However, in “Guns, Germs and Steel”, Jared Diamond's basic theory is that some countries developed more rapidly than others and were able to expand and conquer much of the world because of geographic luck.
The natural resources available to them, coupled with the native species, and climate, provided by their geography, led them to become more agricultural, and less reliant on hunting and gathering for sustenance.
This agrarian lifestyle, in turn, allowed for the development of “specialists”, within the civilization, who could work on developing and perfecting the technologies necessary to make these civilizations more profitable, stronger, and more powerful than others around them. Diamond asserts that those living in temperate climates, with indigenous animals, that could be domesticated, were more likely to develop advanced civilizations.


*


When we discuss ruining the planet, we are discussing it from our point of view. We care.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Boatyarddog

... Care to test the emissions?....

Please post for modern 4-stroke. The new Mercs are Carb 3 star, meaning only 1/3 the limit passed in 2006. The 2-stroke was not even being made then, and who knows what the other motor is (probably old). So yeah, Torquedo is telling a type of lie when demonstrating old motors that are out of production. They could have demonstrated a modern motor.


I like the idea of electric. But we need transparency, not intentional, knowing exaggeration, in order to have a productive discussion.

[Kd9truck]

OP…….I would trade my dingy 6 hp outboard in for an electric one, does anybody know a ecologically conscious mareen service provider that will give me an even swap?