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Old 05-05-2017, 09:51   #16
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Re: HELP! Tender size vs. Foredeck size (Issues)

UNCIVILIZED,
Well, over the years I've used many dinks...from 13' Boston Whalers in the 1960's...to 70's Zodiacs....to 80's generic inflatables....to modern RIB's...to my current RIB, a Caribe C12....(and I'd choose a RIB over anything else, from now on....but, that's not your question...

1) Exactly how you stow your dink, depends on three main variables:
a) Where / how your sailing? (cuz you actually can tow a good dink / RIB)
b) How much room you have on the deck / cabin roof? (how big is your boat?)
c) How big is your dinghy?


2) On my current boat (47' sloop), when sailing across the Atlantic a couple times, I've stowed my Caribe C12 (12' RIB, with 19" tubes and double fiberglass floor/hull), right in front of the mast....fully inflated...
I used wide polyester ratcheting straps (SS mechanisms/hardware) to secure it to the forward cleats and toerail, and some 1/2" Sta-Set line, to secure it to the mast base...
On one crossing, I went thru a wicked full-gale...with winds over 45 kts and seas 20' - 25' for almost 24 hrs.....and on another crossing spent 3 days in Tropical Storm Olga (as it built behind me and then overtook me), with seas of 16'+ and winds 30+, but all on the stern...
I've never had a problem with her coming loose, nor with chafe on the tubes, etc...nor even any troubles marking the deck, etc...
(btw, I even stowed 3 big fenders inside / underneath her, lashed to the inside of the Caribe C12...no worries there either..)

Have a look at these pics....not the greatest, but useful...
And, some videos too...(The videos of my crossings not only show the dinghy, but show me walking around it, to film!)





And, for reference, to see the deck/cabin layout...here's an older pic...



Have a look at these videos....you'll see the dinghy and even me walking around it to film...
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...KgTCj15iyl6qoY



3) Specific answers to your questions...
Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
The issue/my question is this. When storing a dink on the foredeck, including both inflated & deflated, what do you do when the dink is longer than your cabin trunk in front of the mast? Assuming you don't have a huge flush foredeck that is.
You use both the cabin trunk AND the deck....secure the dinghy as best you can, and depending on your boat size/deck space and dinghy size, it usually works fine!!


I ask, since it strikes me that even with proper chocks & lashings, a dinghy that's half on & half off of the cabin trunk would be fairly vulnerable to waves if/when things get hairy. Plus, anything inflatible stowed like that might get accelerated tube wear due to chafe, where it rests on the forward edge, & sides of the cabin house.
Thoughts?
If you secure it well, it will be no trouble....even in heavy weather, offshore...fully inflated RIB...I've done it...see above...
(I recommend wide polyester ratcheting straps, with SS mechanisms/hardware....but good lashings work, too)



Also, how do you "navigate" around a full sized (or close there to) dink on the foredeck? Specifically for things such as sail changes, or connecting your staysail stay & hanking a sail onto it. Getting to the mast to work the halyards. Or going forward to work at the bow. Be it to deploy the anchor, or some other task. Say, rigging up & launching or dousing the kite.
Except for "hanking on a new sail", I've done all of these things, with the dinghy secured there, when offshore....
But, it all depends on your boat size/deck space and dinghy size...


I know that with some dinghies you can stow them on the cabin top aft of the mast, in front of the companionway/dodger. Though if you do this, then your forward visibility goes to crap. Both from the companionway, as well as from behind the dodger. And even at the helm on many boats. Since at times seeing over the bare coach house alone, & under the jib can be a challenge.
Have a look at my videos, and you can see that if I had a much bigger dinghy, I'd have visibility issues, even though it is forward of the mast....
As it is, I have no troubles like that now...
But, on-board, everything is a compromise, you know...



So... I'm curious what your non-davit solution(s) are. And also what you've tried that was either moderately workable, or that you flat out hated. And the why behind any & all of the above. Though, yes, I know that a Porta-Boat sidesteps most of these issues.

One other component of my asking, is that it's nice, & something of a safety feature, to be able to have a dink ready to be launched at a moment's notice. Such as when you run aground on a falling tide, & need to put out a kedge anchor Right NOW. Which won't work if you have to inflate the dink, ditto if you have to bolt the two haves together, non?

I look forward to hearing folks thoughts & experiences. Thanks.

Hope this helps...

Fair winds...

John
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Old 05-05-2017, 10:03   #17
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Re: HELP! Tender size vs. Foredeck size (Issues)

What are the popular solutions for boats in the 35' +/- size range? Both since there's less available space, & in that the foredeck submarines a lot more often than with bigger boats.

Also, some of my asking is due to doing plenty of racing, where solid green water over the deck for hours or days is common. Think about how tough it is to stand at the beach, in 3' breaking waves, then picture them doing 20kts+
Not that such is necessarily common (well, unless you sail where Dockhead does), but it is reality. And thinking about it before needing to deal with it seems wise.

The other factor to this thread is that it's a topic that plenty of folks new to sailing, especially cruising have to sort out. So I figured it worth bringing up.

Thanks for the great answers!
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Old 05-05-2017, 10:12   #18
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Re: HELP! Tender size vs. Foredeck size (Issues)

Get a rollup. I broke a rib in rough weather with a hard dingy on the foredeck.
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Old 05-05-2017, 11:49   #19
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Re: HELP! Tender size vs. Foredeck size (Issues)

Yes i agree with you. I dont carry a dink on the bow, thats my territory, too precious of a area. I call a dink , hard sided and an inflatable an inflatable( old school). I prefer it on the cabin top, and you have addressed the hassels. I build boats in my land timeand have modified some to fit the cabin top, usually being able to lash to the handrails. I love the 8' portuguess dink stitch and glue high bow 50 lbs or so. she tows like a feather, shell kiss your transom in a following sea, but dragging a "u" line off the stern will check that. short waves 7-8' i like her onboard, swells not much concern. davits are ok for fair weather on midsized boats, large boats..... a less worry. Imagine if boats were, are, designed with a dink or inflatable in mind for storage in lew of a lot of bling. life is a compomise and tolerance is golden. sorry no remedy, just a day in my life.😎
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Old 05-05-2017, 11:55   #20
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Re: HELP! Tender size vs. Foredeck size (Issues)

On one trip I used an inflatable kayak for a tender. For passages between islands or island groups in the Caribbean and Bahamas to Florida, I deflated it rolled it up and lashed it on the foredeck. While in the Bahamas I stowed it sideways lashed to the lifelines.
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Old 05-05-2017, 13:12   #21
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Re: HELP! Tender size vs. Foredeck size (Issues)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
Storage on the foredeck is one of the reasons I opted for a portabote many moons ago. It stores on our side deck, safely inboard away from green seas or big winds. It doesn’t block any access, and can be assembled and launched from the deck in about 20 minutes. For our boat, it is the best dink option I’ve found.

Mike - got any closeup pics of how you attach it down?

I have a porta-bote lashed to my stanchions up by the bow but I like your way better - less windage and less change of a breaking wave breaking stuff (though in really nasty weather i'd just take it below)
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Old 05-05-2017, 13:36   #22
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Re: HELP! Tender size vs. Foredeck size (Issues)

Dinghy storage is almost always a problem. By designing your own nesting dinghy you can optimize the dinghy dimensions for the space you have on your boat. Length, width and height can all be set to what is best for your situation. Nesters allow you to have a dinghy which is double the length of the storage space, really helpful. Typically a nester is held together with 4 fasteners, they do not take long to put together.
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Old 05-05-2017, 13:57   #23
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Re: HELP! Tender size vs. Foredeck size (Issues)

A " nestling dinghy" can be a good answer to the limited storage problem, allowing a larger boat, had a friend, Ed Boden, who sailed a Virtue class sloop around the world over a period of 14 year's [24 ft.], Ed had a 3 piece dinghy that he would skull, as i recall it was about 14 ft. long fully assembled, built out of plywood, flat bottom, very stable. Understanding not everyone has the capability to build something like this, there is another way to go, take a fibreglass dinghy and cut it in half at the appropriate place and fibreglass 2 bulkheads in place, this makes a nestling dinghy, a simple bolt together system finishes it off.
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Old 05-05-2017, 14:05   #24
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Re: HELP! Tender size vs. Foredeck size (Issues)

It's a simple case of 10 lb of crap in a 5lb box.

A non rigid inflatable can be rolled up and stowed in a small space.

The other option that seems to work for some is a two piece rigid dinghy. Sailing adventures? on youtube do this.
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Old 05-05-2017, 15:39   #25
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Re: HELP! Tender size vs. Foredeck size (Issues)

Quote:
Originally Posted by alctel View Post
Mike - got any closeup pics of how you attach it down?

I have a porta-bote lashed to my stanchions up by the bow but I like your way better - less windage and less change of a breaking wave breaking stuff (though in really nasty weather i'd just take it below)
Itís hard to see in the pic alctel, but ours is simply lashed to our hand rail, sitting on the deck, while snugged up against the cabin. Our rail is very solid stainless steel, and our decks are quite wide. I like it here b/c it doesnít impede access to the deck, doesnít create any additional windage, and is safe from any green seas we might take on. The only downside is that it blocks some of our ports.

Iíve seen others lash them to stanchions. Seems to work, but I would worry about the forces on the stanchions from a boarding sea.

Iíll keep looking for some better pics...
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Old 05-05-2017, 15:51   #26
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Old 05-05-2017, 19:35   #27
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Re: HELP! Tender size vs. Foredeck size (Issues)

I confronted exactly that same problem. I cheated and built a skiff, a beautiful skiff entirely of 5 or 7 ply mahogany plywood. I coordinated it with the anchor system.
It has turned out to be 20 or 30 pounds heavier than the design, but that always happens. Help me before I lay down an extra strake of triaxial. I try to follow the directions but if a little is good why isn't a little more better.
I have fittings on the exterior to boom her up with a stubby spinnaker pole. I've left sufficient clearance to work around the mast. I've got her tied down to some serious fittings. But no matter how you try there's always green water enough to sweep a skiff off the bow, but the advantage as noted above getting a boat in the water NOW outweighs the risk. Besides, if I'm able, since I'm in the tropics I never tempt Neptune when it's 30 knots or better.
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Old 06-05-2017, 04:49   #28
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Re: HELP! Tender size vs. Foredeck size (Issues)

I built a "box" out of painted 5/8" marine grade plywood (I never got around to gelcoating it) just fore of my mast that serves double duty. First it protects all the mast related wires where they enter the boat. Second, it supports the transom of my 10'6" West Marine RIB (stored upside down, fully inflated). Without this box, I had the RIB about 8 - 10" forward of the mast which prevented access to the anchor locker. The RIB size wasn't my choice in that it was too good a deal to pass up. With my box I also have room to crack open hatches to let in air, even when it is raining, an added bonus. I have the RIB tied down via several holes in my aluminum toe rail (not stanchions) with one fairly long line and I make sure a painters is separately connected to the boat so that in an emergency I pull the knife out of my pocket cut the tie down line in a few places but the boat will stay with the boat but be ready to go in a few seconds.

Last year in Croatia, I was impressed by all the "shorty" RIBs powered by 2.5 hp Tohatsus. That's what I am getting when it comes time to retire my gift 10' RIB, if I have my same boat. They look highly functionally for 2 people and appear easy to hoist/load/unload from the foredeck.
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Old 06-05-2017, 09:26   #29
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Re: HELP! Tender size vs. Foredeck size (Issues)

UNCIVILIZED,

1) I don't know what size boat you have, nor where/how you're cruising....and this second part is very important when considering what type/size dinghy...
{will you SCUBA dive from the dinghy? will you explore far away from your "mother-ship"? are there plenty of open-water sections to travel with your dinghy? or are you mainly anchored near shore access? what are the water temps (and air temps) where you're cruising? are you dinghy landfalls on s soft sand beach? gravel? rocks? dinghy dock? how many people do you need to carry? how much supplies/stores do you need to carry? do you need to tote water and/or fuel?...
the list goes on and on, but I think everyone will see the point...while the cost of dinghy (and outboard) is probably the biggest consideration, followed closely by your query of "where/how do you stow it?", but in order to answer these two points, the sailor needs to answer all of these other questions, in order to find what dinghy the "want", and then narrow down to the one that they "need", and finally to the one that is "best for them"... }

So, with that preface....here's some direct info for you...

2) Although most would accept that those with cruising boats in the +/- 35' range will generally have dinghies smaller than those with cruising boats in the +/- 45' range, even if this difference is slight (or you desire a big dinghy), you should be able to fit your dinghy on the foredeck/cabin trunk...

And, while the beam of your dinghy (particularly RIB's) can be a problem on those with narrow/pointy cruising boats, and some might find it difficult to move forward around them, remember that RIB's and inflatables will fit further aft than hard dinghies, as the aft end of their tubes can straddle the mast...

If you look at the J dimension of my boat (17') and look at how much room there is forward of the dinghy's bow / between the dinghy's bow and my anchor locker, windlass, etc...(not to mention > 7' all the way to the forestay), you can do some initial comparisons to how a proposed dinghy might fit on a cruising boat in the +/- 35 range...

Let's say your proposed +/- 35 footer, has a J dimension of about 14' (+/-)....looking at some random ~ 35-footer specs, this seems like a reasonable spec to assume...

Alberg 35 = 13.5'
Cal 34 = 13.75'
Jeanneau 35 = 13.5'
Beneteau 343 = 12.8'
Beneteau 373 (36') = 14'
Ericson 35 = 14'
Catalina 380 = 14.7'
Tayana 37 = 19.5' (bowsprit) real spec ~ 15'
Tartan 37 = 16'
Catalina 38 = 15.5'

Remember that when thinking of RIB's and inflatables they don't need to entirely fit forward of the mast, as the stern end of the tubes (the part that is aft of the dinghy's transom) can straddle the mast, so their LOA isn't the most important spec here, but rather their length from transom to bow...

In the case of my Caribe C12, which is 11' 6" LOA, the length from transom to bow is only 9' 6"...yes about 2' of the LOA is just the tubes aft of the transom...
http://caribenautica.com/C12.pdf

So, when considering what size / length of dinghy you can fit, remember to take into consideration just how much room forward of the mast it needs, not just the dinghy's LOA...

Now, while my big Caribe C12 RIB would actually fit on-board the above mentioned +/- 35 footers, it might intrude on the windlass on some of them (but unlikely to need the windlass when sailing offshore), and/or make the bow/foredeck a tight fit for you when working forward...
But..
But, just going down a size or two, maybe looking at a 10' RIB, etc., should be an easy fit...
But...
But, as I wrote above, I don't know what boat you have, nor where/how you're sailing, so don't know which dinghies are suitable, let alone will fit well for you...


3) I'm a little confused by your reference to "racing"??
I think you're saying that due to your racing background, you're used to lots of green water over the foredeck while racing and wondering if securing a dinghy forward of the mast is feasible in these conditions ("foredeck submarines")???
If that's the case....then yes, it is feasible and is done often!

But, fyi, most cruising boats find themselves in too light of winds, far more than in heavy weather...
And, even when offshore on passage / crossing oceans, where you can get caught in heavy weather, 35-footers survive just fine....and even those with dinghies on deck forward of the mast don't have many issues...
Of course, this is primarily due to two factors..
a) they're not racing!
b) they know how to properly secure things when offshore (not to the lifelines/stanchions)! (notwithstanding the ridiculous tendency of some these days to lash a plethora of Jerry Jugs to their lifelines/stanchions! those that know what they're doing, don't do that...)

45+ kts of wind and 20'+ seas...plowing thru those (or even heavier) is not an issue if your dinghy is properly secured, let alone 20 kts and 3' breakers...
Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
What are the popular solutions for boats in the 35' +/- size range? Both since there's less available space, & in that the foredeck submarines a lot more often than with bigger boats.

Also, some of my asking is due to doing plenty of racing, where solid green water over the deck for hours or days is common. Think about how tough it is to stand at the beach, in 3' breaking waves, then picture them doing 20kts+
Not that such is necessarily common (well, unless you sail where Dockhead does), but it is reality. And thinking about it before needing to deal with it seems wise.

The other factor to this thread is that it's a topic that plenty of folks new to sailing, especially cruising have to sort out. So I figured it worth bringing up.

Thanks for the great answers!
And, of course, taking advantage of the hydrodynamic design of the dinghy (point it / secure it the right way) so that what green water hits it / comes on-board, just goes over and around it...


I hope this helps some more?

fair winds..

John
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Old 06-05-2017, 10:01   #30
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Re: HELP! Tender size vs. Foredeck size (Issues)

Our 33ft boat has little room for a dingy. We only tow for short distanced.

Since we wanted to be able to plane, especially in the St. Martin lagoon, we bought a 2.8m roll up and an 8HP outboard. It won't fit inflated, but we have found we can raise the book, put the dinghy on the cabin roof, deflate it, and strap it down. It fits under the boom without taking it apart. Once we get to our destination, we raise the boom, partially inflate the dinghy, and throw it overboard. It's got enough air to get in and reinflate. That has been the best solution for us. I hate having to take the dinghy apart and store the components, they get in the way.
We also have a 12v inflator pump so I extended the cable to about 20ft, now there is no foot pump required.
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