A dinghy as a lifeboat

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

According to what I found online, in order to move “44,000 gph” the pump would need to be much larger, wider diameter hose, heavier and six times the cost in order to do the job.

I’d like to know the manufacturer, model and install info to possibly buy one for the 62 if it’s as you describe it. Are you sure yours doesn’t move 4,400 gph rather than 44,000gph? Our present system can move 3,700 gph.

Yes, you'll like this one. I'll try to find the receipt for it with the model number etc.


Just note that it is driven by a 3 1/2hp or something AC electrical motor, so you need to think about power supply.


Capacity is from memory -- maybe it's 44,000 liters, not gallons.


But in any case, keep in mind that real life capacity varies greatly, a x gallons (or liters) per hour of consumer bilge pumps is not at all the same as x gallons per hour of a more powerful pump. Look at the motor and discharge size. And read tests of consumer bilge pumps to understand how much water they move in real life.


Fish whatever posted that the volume of water you can move is not as important as controlling a leak -- he's right, of course. But a good pump can be the crucial difference between getting overwhelmed by rising water why you are figuring out how to stop the leak, and not getting overwhelmed. And the ability of the pump to pass solids may be, in any case, the difference between life and death, as non-trash pumps get clogged. If you read real life accounts of flooding emergencies, time after time after time you read about how the pumps clogged. And how if they'd just had a little more time, they surely would have found the leak.

[Adelie]

I had considered depth of immersion.
The goal is to float with water at top of v-berth which is water at top of container.
Worst case is water at level of forward deck. That means 4.5-5’ to bottom of container.
Any deeper than that and there’s no point.
I’m not worrying about the containers crushing out at the desired water level. I’ll check in a pool for worst case.

[fish53]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Yes, you'll like this one. I'll try to find the receipt for it with the model number etc.


Just note that it is driven by a 3 1/2hp or something AC electrical motor, so you need to think about power supply.


Capacity is from memory -- maybe it's 44,000 liters, not gallons.


But in any case, keep in mind that real life capacity varies greatly, a x gallons (or liters) per hour of consumer bilge pumps is not at all the same as x gallons per hour of a more powerful pump. Look at the motor and discharge size. And read tests of consumer bilge pumps to understand how much water they move in real life.


Fish whatever posted that the volume of water you can move is not as important as controlling a leak -- he's right, of course. But a good pump can be the crucial difference between getting overwhelmed by rising water why you are figuring out how to stop the leak, and not getting overwhelmed. And the ability of the pump to pass solids may be, in any case, the difference between life and death, as non-trash pumps get clogged. If you read real life accounts of flooding emergencies, time after time after time you read about how the pumps clogged. And how if they'd just had a little more time, they surely would have found the leak.

Again a reliance on an engine or motor driven pump to me makes no sense on smaller vessels, driving a 3.5hp electric motor while your engine room is flooding at an unknown rate sounds pretty dicey. Trash pumps do clog and quite easily hence the specs for solids that they can pass plus they are not positive displacement pumps and require priming and a foot valve. I find it interesting that you've ignored the manual pumps I posted that generations of fisherman in the PNW and AK use. However I believe you should go to sea in whatever fashion suits you.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by fish53

Again a reliance on an engine or motor driven pump to me makes no sense on smaller vessels, driving a 3.5hp electric motor while your engine room is flooding at an unknown rate sounds pretty dicey. Trash pumps do clog and quite easily hence the specs for solids that they can pass plus they are not positive displacement pumps and require priming and a foot valve. I find it interesting that you've ignored the manual pumps I posted that generations of fisherman in the PNW and AK use. However I believe you should go to sea in whatever fashion suits you.

Yes, naturally, an AC powered pump is not for everyone. You need to have a source of power which will NOT be knocked out by a couple of feet of water in the boat, and that's a tall order. It works for me only because I have a diesel generator mounted well above the waterline.



I have certainly looked at manual pumps, and I actually have one. I think it's good to have a manual pump in your arsenal, but I do not believe that your chances of moving a great deal of water with them, is very great. Plus it requires crew members which you might need for other tasks in the emergency, or might not have at all (!). So in sum -- manual pumps -- good to have, but in my opinion nothing to rely on as Plan "A" in a serious flooding emergency.




The Coast Guard relies on trash pumps to dewater boats in flooding emergencies. I think I agree with their choice, as giving you the best chance of getting enough water out of the boat to save it, in a serious flooding emergency.

[RaymondR]

The only practical solution to the sinkability of ballasted monohulls is to have sufficient watertight compartmentalization built in.

If one is stuck with a paranoia regarding sinking the only practical solution is to buy or build a multihull.

For those of us on limited budgets who cruise extensively the dingy as life boat is a much more economic solution than an inflatable life raft which costs a lot initially and requires expensive servicing at regular intervals.

A bit more design effort on the means of readily converting the dingy into a full facilities life rafts is required.

[Doek]

Today, 15:59

quackedo

I've been cruising for over 30 years. I've had inflatables (deflatables), hard dinghies (tippy and fragile), and life rafts (just short of worthless and often dangerous) . My requirements are: easily hold a lot of weight, able to row into waves and wind, able to sail w/o a lot of refit work, able to motor, (but not plane as I don't want to get so far out that I couldn't row home, self contained (safety gear, fishing gear, mast and sails, oars, etc etc with me all the time), able to take a lot of abuse with minimal damage, works as a fully functional life raft (that I can sail out of trouble instead of bobbing around), has an easily deployed full lifeboat enclosure, and saves me the initial and recurring cost of a flimsy life raft with its useless equipment.
I did extensive research and have owned a Portland Pudgy for about a decade. It meets all the requirements perfectly. Nothing else even comes close. And my life raft cost me $600 per year to re-pack, so after a few years the Portland Pudgy completely paid for itself. Best of all, as I use it everyday, I am familiar with it, and will be efficient in an emergency. And I don't have to worry about a shark biting it, and eating me after it sinks (life raft).

[fish53]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Yes, naturally, an AC powered pump is not for everyone. You need to have a source of power which will NOT be knocked out by a couple of feet of water in the boat, and that's a tall order. It works for me only because I have a diesel generator mounted well above the waterline.



I have certainly looked at manual pumps, and I actually have one. I think it's good to have a manual pump in your arsenal, but I do not believe that your chances of moving a great deal of water with them, is very great. Plus it requires crew members which you might need for other tasks in the emergency, or might not have at all (!). So in sum -- manual pumps -- good to have, but in my opinion nothing to rely on as Plan "A" in a serious flooding emergency.




The Coast Guard relies on trash pumps to dewater boats in flooding emergencies. I think I agree with their choice, as giving you the best chance of getting enough water out of the boat to save it, in a serious flooding emergency.

The coast guard has portable pumps specifically to transfer to a vessel in distress, it's the only way to give someone a pump at sea, unless of course you want them to come aboard and install a manual deck pump. As I said you go to sea in equipped as you chose I don't have to go with you and hopefully I don't have to rescue you. If you're set on going the trash pump route you may want investigate eductors, they're a jet pump that operates of the pressurized water from the trash pump greatly increasing capacity, you may find you can get a one inch pump up to the capacity of a two inch, I'm not sure they come as small as you need although I've used inch and half pumps on them.http://www.shipserv.com/ShipServ/pag...651MA0711w.pdf

[fish53]

Originally Posted by quackedo

Today, 15:59

quackedo

I've been cruising for over 30 years. I've had inflatables (deflatables), hard dinghies (tippy and fragile), and life rafts (just short of worthless and often dangerous) . My requirements are: easily hold a lot of weight, able to row into waves and wind, able to sail w/o a lot of refit work, able to motor, (but not plane as I don't want to get so far out that I couldn't row home, self contained (safety gear, fishing gear, mast and sails, oars, etc etc with me all the time), able to take a lot of abuse with minimal damage, works as a fully functional life raft (that I can sail out of trouble instead of bobbing around), has an easily deployed full lifeboat enclosure, and saves me the initial and recurring cost of a flimsy life raft with its useless equipment.
I did extensive research and have owned a Portland Pudgy for about a decade. It meets all the requirements perfectly. Nothing else even comes close. And my life raft cost me $600 per year to re-pack, so after a few years the Portland Pudgy completely paid for itself. Best of all, as I use it everyday, I am familiar with it, and will be efficient in an emergency. And I don't have to worry about a shark biting it, and eating me after it sinks (life raft).

Enjoy your Pudgy in a twenty five foot sea. If your boating activities are always within shouting distance from shore, in warm water and you can be assured of fine weather at all times it sounds great. I've been in a Portland Pudgy offshore in weather and it'll beat you to death, but like others you know best what you're comfortable with. It's worth note that the USCG doesn't see a Pudgy as life saving equipment on commercial vessels. The bad rap life rafts get is primarily because rafts for recreational vessels aren't always at commercial standards and the stowage and maintenance isn't mandatory and even some boats I've seen with rafts have no hydrostatic release and are so lashed down it would take an hour to free it. As rafts have saved me twice I'll stick with my RFD thanks. I am curious how many times your Pudgy has saved you while functioning as a lifeboat? I'm assuming of course that's one of your requirements that you say it's met perfectly.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by fish53

The coast guard has portable pumps specifically to transfer to a vessel in distress, it's the only way to give someone a pump at sea, unless of course you want them to come aboard and install a manual deck pump. As I said you go to sea in equipped as you chose I don't have to go with you and hopefully I don't have to rescue you. If you're set on going the trash pump route you may want investigate eductors, they're a jet pump that operates of the pressurized water from the trash pump greatly increasing capacity, you may find you can get a one inch pump up to the capacity of a two inch, I'm not sure they come as small as you need although I've used inch and half pumps on them.www.shipserv.com/ShipServ/pages/attachments/62246-ma/0651MA0711w.pdf

Yes, sure. But my pump is not 1", not 1.5", and not 2", but 3". With a folding firehose, which I can fit blindfolded in under 15 seconds. This will pass massive solids and move a ton of water. 3" has 2 1/2x the capacity of 2", and 9x the capacity of 1".



Is that a guarantee of saving the boat? Absolutely not. There aren't any guarantees of any kind, in the middle of the ocean. But such a thing does improve the odds.

[fish53]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Yes, sure. But my pump is not 1", not 1.5", and not 2", but 3". With a folding firehose, which I can fit blindfolded in under 15 seconds. This will pass massive solids and move a ton of water. 3" has 2 1/2x the capacity of 2", and 9x the capacity of 1".



Is that a guarantee of saving the boat? Absolutely not. There aren't any guarantees of any kind, in the middle of the ocean. But such a thing does improve the odds.

Good luck getting suction on a collapsible firehose and have you ever seen what happens when a rag or piece of line gets caught around the impeller of a trash pump? Like I said do as you wish you obviously have this well in hand, I wish you the best of luck.

[fieldmedik]

With all due respect, I disagree. I have a portland pudgy. It is fitted with a sail rig (stored in an gunwalls which is dry storage. I also have one of my ditch kits stored in the gunwall along with the oars. We also have a 5hp Lehr for the outboard. We did purchase the exposure enclosure. We have tried to sink the dink, we have been able to capsize it but that took a lot to do! We manually inflated the exposure enclosure and then (again) capsized it. We are completely comfortable with this as our solution over a dedicated liferaft.
There are a few reasons we went with this option.
1. our boat isn't huge so it is a great space saver.
2. the cost savings (6k matters to us) for both the intial cost as well as ongoing cost of inspections etc.
3. I love having the dry storage accessble from inside as well as outside that we can store the oars, enclosure, ditch kit, food, water, etc. Everything is already staged and exactly what we want for gear.
4.. We love having all three options of oars, moter, sail without having to decide before we go. In other words, I can choose to sail to shore but have oars stored inside the gunwall and not in the passenger space.
5. We love the idea of an active life saving device. We are military and hate the idea of just passively floating around hoping someone will come by and save us.
6. My bright yellow hard dinghy is very distictive. I dont have to worry about someone going to the dinghy dock drunk and taking our dink by mistake and it's very easily identified if stolen.
7. I hate unitaskers!
To each their own but we are really happy with the PP.

[fieldmedik]

Originally Posted by fish53

Enjoy your Pudgy in a twenty five foot sea. If your boating activities are always within shouting distance from shore, in warm water and you can be assured of fine weather at all times it sounds great. I've been in a Portland Pudgy offshore in weather and it'll beat you to death, but like others you know best what you're comfortable with. It's worth note that the USCG doesn't see a Pudgy as life saving equipment on commercial vessels. The bad rap life rafts get is primarily because rafts for recreational vessels aren't always at commercial standards and the stowage and maintenance isn't mandatory and even some boats I've seen with rafts have no hydrostatic release and are so lashed down it would take an hour to free it. As rafts have saved me twice I'll stick with my RFD thanks. I am curious how many times your Pudgy has saved you while functioning as a lifeboat? I'm assuming of course that's one of your requirements that you say it's met perfectly.

Just a quick correction. The Pudgy HAS recieved approval from the CG for comercial vessels on an individual basis. The reason it does not have "USCG approval" as you are stating is not because it isn't a great alernative to a liferaft but owing to internal CG regs. There are NO "standards" for which the CG can "approve" any hard dink. They only have regs for soft life rafts.

[IslandHopper]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Yes, sure. But my pump is not 1", not 1.5", and not 2", but 3". With a folding firehose, which I can fit blindfolded in under 15 seconds. This will pass massive solids and move a ton of water. 3" has 2 1/2x the capacity of 2", and 9x the capacity of 1".



Is that a guarantee of saving the boat? Absolutely not. There aren't any guarantees of any kind, in the middle of the ocean. But such a thing does improve the odds.

If your use a fire hose on the suction side it won't work, ALL trash pumps need a reinforced non collapsible inlet hose, you can use a fire hose on the discharge side but not the suction.....

[Doek]

If you think a life raft in 25' Seas is fun... In any severe storm you're going to get beat up. In my Pudgy, there are rings I can clip into so even if it gets rocked severely, I'll be secured. Try that with any life raft!
I've used my Pudgy daily in all kinds of weather. I routinely inflate the canopy to ferry supplies in the rain. I think you have it exactly backward. I see a typical life raft rescue to be one that help is nearby quickly in fairly calm conditions near shore. I would consider a Pudgy much more suitable in heavy offshore conditions.
Inflating a raft that you have never used before, in the dark, with high Seas, howling winds and then it inflates upside down and everything falls out of it (mine did) after I spent almost 1/2 hour trying to figure out how to get it inflated, is not my idea of reasonable safety equipment. Added to that is the fact that my certified life raft then leaked both water and air continuously. None of these things is possible with my Portland Pudgy. Period. I have daily experience using it. It sits under my boom upright when at sea and is ready for immediate use. I threw my life raft in the dumpster. I realize that life rafts have saved lives, but wonder how many they have killed as well. My experience with them has been horrible and I am not alone.

[Don C L]

Well, my interest was piqued, and I found this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myZu7npsgIM

I confess I had never seen a Pudgy, but after checking out the website and other info, I can see it! It is too pricey for my needs and too big for my particular foredeck, but I definitely see it.