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Old 23-01-2019, 16:43   #31
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Re: A dinghy as a lifeboat

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Originally Posted by MartinR View Post
People get scared, feel unsafe with 2 feet of waters sloshing around in the boat and think they are safer in a life raft......

Probably life rafts have killed as many people as they have saved.
IF they open at all like about 50% wont do. Then your in a raft and have to enjoy where weather and wind are driving you. A proper prepared dinghy can be closed and has a mast and sails and you get where the help is (the next shipping lane etc.)
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Old 23-01-2019, 17:24   #32
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Re: A dinghy as a lifeboat

So....those of you using a dinghy as life raft, care to detail your modifications and/or preparations?
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Old 23-01-2019, 17:40   #33
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Re: A dinghy as a lifeboat

I guess we all have our own thinking about life rafts and what might happen out there. For me I like to have a real offshore ready life raft with a hydrostatic release in the event I cannot deploy it. Inside will be the basic supplies for survival as well a flairs. I hope to grab my GPIRB as well as my abandon ship bag that includes a waterproof hand held VHF. I also have survival suits for cold water. Would I use my Zodiac for a raft? Well only if my real life raft was not an option. You know, when you go on someone’s boat and look around it’s easy to see the sailors who have never had to fight a real fire onboard, they have just the minimum requirement of fire extinguishers. This holds the same for sailors who’ve never had to abandon ship. Trust me I know, when things go wrong your going to want the best survival equipment possible because it’s just not going to be good enough. I wish you safe passages.......
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Old 23-01-2019, 18:38   #34
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Re: A dinghy as a lifeboat

Regarding cold water cruising, I carry drysuits and wet suits. Always have; there may be other reasons I have to go in the water, mostly related to repair and inspection or tangling fishing gear. An immersion suit is another option, EVEN if you have a raft. The intention is to have BOTH.


If you are sailing in water where the water is uncomfortably cold... just think about that.
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Old 23-01-2019, 18:58   #35
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Re: A dinghy as a lifeboat

It all depends on what SOLAS lists as a lifeboat and for what purposes.

My Polycraft filled with foam qualifies as such--but I would want a substantial kit of goodies permanently inside it, as well as a waterproof shelter and a water-brake to avoid being turned over easily before I would consider it safe, and then even although the dinghy will not sink and can not be holed as can other inflatable rafts and dinghies, one still needs protection from the dinghy itself. If it is hard, or even moderately hard, it can hurt you.
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Old 23-01-2019, 19:40   #36
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Re: A dinghy as a lifeboat

Depends on the dinghy. There is a wide range of seaworthiness in dinghies. And it depends on how that dinghy is set up. My preference is for a good sized seaworthy dinghy. In addition to the difficulties others have noted, the ability to move, to navigate the boat and get myself to shore is something I value. In a liferaft you are 100% dependent on others rescuing you.
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Old 23-01-2019, 20:06   #37
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Re: A dinghy as a lifeboat

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It all depends on what SOLAS lists as a lifeboat and for what purposes.

My Polycraft filled with foam qualifies as such--but I would want a substantial kit of goodies permanently inside it, as well as a waterproof shelter and a water-brake to avoid being turned over easily before I would consider it safe, and then even although the dinghy will not sink and can not be holed as can other inflatable rafts and dinghies, one still needs protection from the dinghy itself. If it is hard, or even moderately hard, it can hurt you.
Polycraft do not qualify as a life raft as far as SOLAS is concerned, the below correspondence from them regarding such......

Quote:
Not sure about the SOLAS approval as its more of an international thing, rather we used the AYBC standards for the Tuff Tender .
A standard Tuff Tender is manufactured in Basic flotation, and it can be upgraded to Level Flotation for an extra $930.
However it was never designed for use as a life raft, more of a tender or small fishing boat. In saying that in level flotation format its unsinkable so that’s a step in the right direction for a life raft .See attached for physical swamp test of a level flotation hull, inside the boat flooded, internal hull flooded , and 5 x 80 kg plus PAX and still floats (Hull only rated to 3 PAX ) If you have any questions please don’t hesitate to reply to this email or call me on 1800336603

Steve Cooper
Polycraft Sales
Polycraft Industries
Mobile: 0436670957
Phone: 07) 4131 3451
Fax: 07) 4155 2088

email: stephencooper@polyindustries.com
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Old 23-01-2019, 21:29   #38
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Re: A dinghy as a lifeboat

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Originally Posted by pmagistro View Post
So....those of you using a dinghy as life raft, care to detail your modifications and/or preparations?
Our miles are always planned for good conditions and in tropical waters.
On our 14ft x 6ft2 quintrex alloy with 30hp OB it always has standard safety gear (life jackets, V sheet, oars, anchor) onboard + plotter, sounder, lights, electric bilge pump, suntan lotion, fire extinguisher, spare prop, spark plug, split pins and basic tools, a variety of fishing and trolling gear, knife, shade tarpaulin and rope and 10 litres of water.

On open water coastal passage we have grab bag (flares, 406 epirb, torches, caps, more sunny lotion,paperwork, mobile phone in waterproof bag and handheld VHF) near cockpit door.
Near exit point at duckboard is usually at least 2 x 25litre fuel + additional 20 litres of water.

Future upgrade for further afield will be a refitting of the original shade canopy plus a solid foam collar fitted at the chine making it incredibly stable and pretty much unsinkable .
Kapten Boat Collars - the best stability & performance-aid for small boats
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Old 23-01-2019, 22:10   #39
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Re: A dinghy as a lifeboat

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There have been several comments in other threads about using certain dinghies as lifeboats. The folks over at Portland Pudgy encourage this sort of thinking and have canopies and other lifeboat-specific components that they sell.


It seems to me that, rationalizations aside, this is mainly about cost, since the annual cost of having a properly inspected and repacked life raft aboard is considerable.


Does it make sense to treat the dinghy as a liferaft alternative, or is this wishful thinking?
Depends on the circumstances where you would need to abandon the mothership, depends on the dinghy, and depends on your feelings about risk.

Why would you need to abandon the mothership
A. Breaking apart during a storm
B. Fire
C. Explosion (propane let's say)
D. Aground and breaking apart
E. Water ingress due to hole: whale, Conex, log in the water, another vessel keeping as bad a watch as you were,. . . .

If the boat capsizes, you lose steering or the rig, that's not a reason to abandon ship. If it's still floating, stay on the mothership.

A. During a storm you are going to want to get into something stable enough to ride things out. An offshore life raft is designed for lots of stability and seems to be the obvious choice in an ultimate storm if you can deploy and board it. As the severity of the storm decreases at some point it becomes possible for the dinghy to serve the purpose. Where that line is depends on the severity of the storm and the particulars of the dinghy.
B. During a fire, speed of departure is likely to be very important. On the face of it the liferaft seems to have the advantage, but only if it is stored on deck in a covering that can be quickly stripped away. If the liferaft is stored in a lazarette and the dinghy is on deck tied down and all you have to do is cut the straps and turn it over, the dinghy will be preferred.
C. In an explosion there will be a certain amount of luck involved. Anything in a locker will probably have shifted around and may be damaged. Damage may still occur to items on deck but I'm guessing the odds are a bit better. I'm going to guess that a hard dinghy will do better than an inflatable dinghy or liferaft.
D. If the boat goes aground on rocks I'm going to say the dinghy is a better bet because there are likely to be other things around you may not want to wash up on, other rocks, rocky shore, cliffs. In that case the dinghy is better because with oars or better yet a working motor you have some ability to escape the rocks, shore or cliffs or at least influence the final resting location to be a less bad place. If you go aground on the leeward side of land, a dinghy offers you the possibility of going upwind to make landfall whereas a liferaft means drifting downwind until somebody comes and gets you. If all's that's downwind is a gently sloping sand shore it really doesn't matter either way.
E. Surviving random water ingress is going to depend on how fast you lose the boat and weather conditions. If the dinghy is on deck and the liferaft below, . . . If the loss is slow enough that you can depart with time for deliberation, then put the liferaft in the dinghy and take the dinghy.

As for the dinghy let's say there are 4 types of dinghy:
1. Hard
2. Folding
3. RIB
4. Inflatable

I've done a fair amount of research on liferaft survival and hard dinghies or rafts generally survive MUCH longer than inflatables. The only only recorded inflatable drift I know of that lasted more than 100 days was the Baileys. There are numerous stories of folks that drifted for over 100 on hard rafts or dinghies, a couple made it over 1 year. The above list would be approximately in order of durability with an inflatable liferaft being #5. If you think that triggering an EPIRB will bring rescue in 2-5days wherever you are then durability may not be as an important an attribute.

It seems to me that the above list is in reverse order of stability. That doesn't mean you can't improve the stability of a hard dinghy or folding boat. If I had a hard dinghy or folding boat I would find oversized cylinders of the foam they make pool-noodles out of, cut them in half length-wise, encase them in Sunbrella and find a way to attach them to the rails of the dinghy and voila, hard dinghy or folding boat is now essentially a RIB, but without the risk of puncturing an inflation cell. Water ballast bags for any of the above could be fabricated which would make them much more resistant to capsize in heavy seas. These ballast bags will not make a dinghy as stable as a round raft, but they will improve the situation. Pool-noodles are again an inspiration for creating a canopy that also helps right the dinghy from a capzise. Take some fiberglass tent poles to make an arch, cover with noodles, encase everything in yellow or orange Sunbrella. Ironically, I see this working better with the hard dinghy or folding boat than with the RIB or inflatable, I can't see good ways to anchor the ends of the tent poles to the tubes that doesn't also risk spearing and puncturing the them if things come loose like they will in extremis.

Lastly, what are your fears? If you really have a serious fear of the boat sinking during a severe storm then go with the life raft. Having the mother ship sink is a pretty low odds event. Having it sink in a situation where an inflatable life raft would be the only via exit is an even less likely event. If you can life with that rationale and you'd rather spend the money upgrading the dinghy, or better yet making the mother ship unsinkable then maybe you can skip the liferaft.

There are other considerations. What are the fears of the other folks aboard? Are there insurance requirements? Are you part of a group such as ARC that requires a liferaft?

If anybody want's I can compile the list of liferaft survival books I have. The best are compilations of stories or historical overviews.
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Old 23-01-2019, 22:16   #40
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Re: A dinghy as a lifeboat

In some places offshore oil drillers are required to do helicopter ditching courses every couple of years. They strap you into a mock helicopter cabin and drop it into a big tank of water, you then have to open the doors, unstrap yourself and swim out. The first dunk is upright then they rig the thing to flip upside down and you have to do the door opening and unstrapping upside down. One of the more unpleasant parts is ones ears filling with water as the cabin flips over underwater. They do it both ways so that both ears get filled.

However, possibly the most unpleasant part is the inflatable life raft drill, where you are required to swim around and climb into an inflated life raft, very few people manage it unassisted.

I read the Robertson folks book many years ago and I seem to recall that it was actually the hard dingy which saved their lives after the inflatable life raft fell apart. Also the seventy something days bloke who was wrecked by a whale off the coast of West Africa and drifted all the way across the Atlantic. I seem to recall that he stated he would not have another inflatable raft as had he been able to consistently maintain 1 knot in a westerly direction he would have made it in 1/2-2/3 the time and been in far better condition when he got there.

I am definitely in the dingy as life raft side of the argument but do tend to the opinion that we should put a little more effort into equipping them more properly.
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Old 24-01-2019, 01:48   #41
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Re: A dinghy as a lifeboat

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Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
Regarding cold water cruising, I carry drysuits and wet suits. Always have; there may be other reasons I have to go in the water, mostly related to repair and inspection or tangling fishing gear. An immersion suit is another option, EVEN if you have a raft. The intention is to have BOTH.


If you are sailing in water where the water is uncomfortably cold... just think about that.

Well, I have a very expensive drysuit which I bought for my Arctic cruise last summer. I also required all my crew to have drysuits. We practiced MOB -- IN THE WATER -- with live people -- in icy water.



Drysuits are great, and may save your life, but they are not substitutes for life rafts (you said BOTH, I see, yes). First of all, you are likely to not be able to get one on in time, in case of a fire or sudden sinking. Second, a drysuit won't help you much in case of a storm.



But if you have time to get one on, or are already wearing one, then a dry suit is surely a fantastic thing to have on, if you have to abandon in a place with cold water. Absolutely could save your life.



And as far as I can figure out, it's probably your ONLY chance of surviving a MOB into really cold water, if you fall off a boat sailing at any speed and/or in any kind of weather.
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Old 24-01-2019, 02:03   #42
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Re: A dinghy as a lifeboat

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Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
Depends on the circumstances where you would need to abandon the mothership, depends on the dinghy, and depends on your feelings about risk.

Why would you need to abandon the mothership
A. Breaking apart during a storm
B. Fire
C. Explosion (propane let's say)
D. Aground and breaking apart
E. Water ingress due to hole: whale, Conex, log in the water, another vessel keeping as bad a watch as you were,. . . .

If the boat capsizes, you lose steering or the rig, that's not a reason to abandon ship. If it's still floating, stay on the mothership.

A. During a storm you are going to want to get into something stable enough to ride things out. An offshore life raft is designed for lots of stability and seems to be the obvious choice in an ultimate storm if you can deploy and board it. As the severity of the storm decreases at some point it becomes possible for the dinghy to serve the purpose. Where that line is depends on the severity of the storm and the particulars of the dinghy.
B. During a fire, speed of departure is likely to be very important. On the face of it the liferaft seems to have the advantage, but only if it is stored on deck in a covering that can be quickly stripped away. If the liferaft is stored in a lazarette and the dinghy is on deck tied down and all you have to do is cut the straps and turn it over, the dinghy will be preferred.
C. In an explosion there will be a certain amount of luck involved. Anything in a locker will probably have shifted around and may be damaged. Damage may still occur to items on deck but I'm guessing the odds are a bit better. I'm going to guess that a hard dinghy will do better than an inflatable dinghy or liferaft.
D. If the boat goes aground on rocks I'm going to say the dinghy is a better bet because there are likely to be other things around you may not want to wash up on, other rocks, rocky shore, cliffs. In that case the dinghy is better because with oars or better yet a working motor you have some ability to escape the rocks, shore or cliffs or at least influence the final resting location to be a less bad place. If you go aground on the leeward side of land, a dinghy offers you the possibility of going upwind to make landfall whereas a liferaft means drifting downwind until somebody comes and gets you. If all's that's downwind is a gently sloping sand shore it really doesn't matter either way.
E. Surviving random water ingress is going to depend on how fast you lose the boat and weather conditions. If the dinghy is on deck and the liferaft below, . . . If the loss is slow enough that you can depart with time for deliberation, then put the liferaft in the dinghy and take the dinghy.

As for the dinghy let's say there are 4 types of dinghy:
1. Hard
2. Folding
3. RIB
4. Inflatable

I've done a fair amount of research on liferaft survival and hard dinghies or rafts generally survive MUCH longer than inflatables. The only only recorded inflatable drift I know of that lasted more than 100 days was the Baileys. There are numerous stories of folks that drifted for over 100 on hard rafts or dinghies, a couple made it over 1 year. The above list would be approximately in order of durability with an inflatable liferaft being #5. If you think that triggering an EPIRB will bring rescue in 2-5days wherever you are then durability may not be as an important an attribute.

It seems to me that the above list is in reverse order of stability. That doesn't mean you can't improve the stability of a hard dinghy or folding boat. If I had a hard dinghy or folding boat I would find oversized cylinders of the foam they make pool-noodles out of, cut them in half length-wise, encase them in Sunbrella and find a way to attach them to the rails of the dinghy and voila, hard dinghy or folding boat is now essentially a RIB, but without the risk of puncturing an inflation cell. Water ballast bags for any of the above could be fabricated which would make them much more resistant to capsize in heavy seas. These ballast bags will not make a dinghy as stable as a round raft, but they will improve the situation. Pool-noodles are again an inspiration for creating a canopy that also helps right the dinghy from a capzise. Take some fiberglass tent poles to make an arch, cover with noodles, encase everything in yellow or orange Sunbrella. Ironically, I see this working better with the hard dinghy or folding boat than with the RIB or inflatable, I can't see good ways to anchor the ends of the tent poles to the tubes that doesn't also risk spearing and puncturing the them if things come loose like they will in extremis.

Lastly, what are your fears? If you really have a serious fear of the boat sinking during a severe storm then go with the life raft. Having the mother ship sink is a pretty low odds event. Having it sink in a situation where an inflatable life raft would be the only via exit is an even less likely event. If you can life with that rationale and you'd rather spend the money upgrading the dinghy, or better yet making the mother ship unsinkable then maybe you can skip the liferaft.

There are other considerations. What are the fears of the other folks aboard? Are there insurance requirements? Are you part of a group such as ARC that requires a liferaft?

If anybody want's I can compile the list of liferaft survival books I have. The best are compilations of stories or historical overviews.



That's a pretty good analysis, I think.


If we talk about fears -- I think the primary one is that the mother ship for whatever of the several reasons you listed, ceases being capable of separating the crew from the ocean.



It's unlikely, but it happens every year to someone, so it's not a purely theoretical issue. It's unlikely, but the consequences are likely death of the whole crew, so worth a couple grand to many of us.


If we end up without a mother ship in the ocean somewhere, the biggest factor in suitability of the escape craft is stability. It's stability which will provide the capability of the escape craft to fulfill its function -- namely, to separate the crew from the ocean.



Second after stability is shelter. The idea is to keep you out of the ocean, and the weather off of you, until rescue.



Other functions -- comfort, for example, and ability to maneuver, are not much important compared to the first two.


So thinking about stability -- a small, hard dinghy will be the worst, a large inflatable will be considerably better, but neither remotely comparable to a real life raft.


For shelter -- I guess any small craft can be equipped with a canopy, but it needs to be one which won't blow away in a storm, which is not all that simple to arrange.





Another important consideration is deployment. A dinghy which is deflated and stored in a locker will take a great deal of time to deploy, especially in bad weather. This will be useless in a fire. A dinghy in davits will be much better, but can you launch it in a storm? A life raft at the bottom of a locker might be useless in many cases, but life rafts at least auto inflate -- just tie off and chuck overboard. A liferaft properly mounted on the taffrail or in an above-deck locker, even better with a hydrostatic release, will be supreme in this regard.


In general, it should be no surprise that the device which was specifically designed for this purpose, will usually work much better for that purpose, than something which was designed for a completely different one.
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Old 24-01-2019, 02:11   #43
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Re: A dinghy as a lifeboat

I think a clarification needs to be made...I would assume if I'm considering my dingy as an alternative, it is on deck, inflated and reasonably accessible in an emergency.

Obviously, if it's an inflatable, stowed in a compartment in a bag, deflated...that's likely not to be a viable alternative.

I would assume we are talking about a dingy mounted in usable condition either on deck or in davits ready for launch in a few minutes at most.

Also several people are indicating you will be warmer in a life raft...if you are talking the more expensive double floor rafts, there is some truth to this. If it's the less expensive single floor rafts vs a dingy (say an inflatable floor dingy), the opposite could be true (assuming waves aren't washing over the boat..but in that case, you are likely to stay soaked regardless).
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Old 24-01-2019, 06:42   #44
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A dinghy as a lifeboat

What are you Guy’s calling dry suits?
Diving dry suits? Bag type or crushed neoprene?
I have an immersion suit (Gumby type) for the wife even though I never intend to be in less than tropical water, much cheaper than a diving dry suit, much easier to Don, and I think much better for survival at sea.
I left my diving dry suit at home, seals are by now bad I’m sure, they only last about three years.
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Old 24-01-2019, 06:49   #45
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Re: A dinghy as a lifeboat

There are companys that sell life Rafts that give a course via a 45 min movie. This will open your eyes to the danger.
Very unlikely your ship will go down on a nice day in full calm and sun. ! Knowledge will set you free.
You can rent a life raft from West marine. in the tropics the sun will eat you alive in days.
Up north the cold will get you .No dink will take the place of a life raft.
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