2 strokes illegal in US????

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I will make a prediction that the last automobile either Dockhead or I ever buy, will be powered by an Otto cycle engine, it may emulate the Atkinson cycle with variable valve timing, but it will be an Otto cycle.. . . .

Could be true for A64, living in the U.S., where diesel cars are almost prohibited.

Speaking for myself, I definitely won't buy another Otto cycle car, unless it's a classic, or unless diesel cars are forbidden in Europe.

Diesel cycle cars are now so unbelievably much better than Ottos. A64 should try a BMW 123 M coupe sometime (just one of many examples of incredible diesel cars you can buy in Europe) -- this is an absolutely unbelievable machine. The sequential turbodiesel engine makes 218hp out of 2000cc (!), giving 0-60 in less than 7 seconds while using less fuel than a Prius (the BMW gets 54 mpg).

But the acceleration number doesn't really convey what it feels like to drive -- it makes 450nm of torque -- already at 1500 RPM. That's as much torque as my brutal beast of an E39 540i made, from its 4.4 liter V8, except the 540i got to that number only at 3600RPM. The sheer brutal force the little diesel can apply is incredible -- it's unbelievably fun to drive. While using less fuel than a Prius. I rent this car from time to time in the UK -- bless you, Sixt.

No Otto cycle car can do that.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

No Otto cycle car can do that.

They might can, if you ease the emissions.
Emissions is one of the wild cards that keeps the Otto cycle around, part of what killed the Wankel for instance, and others.
Diesels are not prohibited in the US, just its not possible to get that kind of performance, and meet emissions with a Diesel. BTW, VW was not the first to cheat emissions testing, most of the manufacturers have and been caught, they were just the last.
You will know Diesel is the performance King maybe when there is a Diesel Sportbike. It's possible, maybe.
I've said over and over that common rail Diesels are not your Grandfathers Diesel, Electronic fuel injection has revolutionized the Diesel engine.
But then emissions rears its ugly head I've had a Common Rail Diesel for the last 15 yrs, a Duramax, a joint venture between Isuzu and GM, although the data plate on mine says Isuzu.

Diesels have their place, but can't I don't think replace gasoline.
I'm no petroleum expert but I think only so much Diesel can be squeezed from a Barrel of oil and a lot of what is left is or can be gasoline, need of course to burn that too.
Currently big motors, like OTR trucks, trains, ships etc. burn Diesel, and little motors burn gasoline. That may be a logical use of oil?

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by belle-isle

I agree with you on the fact that comparing a 60's 2-stroke and a 21st century 4-stroke is clearly biased. Not only that but one factor (which may be critical, or not, depending on a specific user's needs) is also not addressed by this latest comparison: weight.

This thread has clearly established that 4-strokes are superior in fuel efficiency and 2-strokes are superior in lightness. Personally, the latter one is more important to me and I'm willing to pay more fuel and spend an extra fee seconds adding oil for that. And I totally understand that for others in different circumstances (like not having to haul the engine up and down a pushpit in choppy waters), fuel efficiency could be the main driver.

Like all things on a boat, outboards are a matter of compromise...


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

This seems correct but then there's still that terrible smell of a 2 stroke.

It didn't bother me back in the day maybe because cars didn't have catalytic converters but it does now.

Another point for the 4 stroke.

And btw, the 65 Mercury on my list of 2 strokes owned was a 70's era engine and it was almost new when I bought it for $700,00 in 1975......It was an awesome engine!

https://www.google.com/search?q=1973...CmgX8CbKHTM%3A

[a64pilot]

Engine that I have the fondest memories of was the Merc "Tower of Power".
We had the first 100 HP outboard in the area, on a 16' boat too I believe and it was for years the fastest ski boat around.
The Tower of Power was an inline 6 cyl engine, with I believe 6 carburetors, and being an inline 6, was butter smooth.

[MarkSF]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Could be true for A64, living in the U.S., where diesel cars are almost prohibited.

Speaking for myself, I definitely won't buy another Otto cycle car, unless it's a classic, or unless diesel cars are forbidden in Europe.

Diesel cycle cars are now so unbelievably much better than Ottos. A64 should try a BMW 123 M coupe sometime (just one of many examples of incredible diesel cars you can buy in Europe) -- this is an absolutely unbelievable machine. The sequential turbodiesel engine makes 218hp out of 2000cc (!), giving 0-60 in less than 7 seconds while using less fuel than a Prius (the BMW gets 54 mpg).

But the acceleration number doesn't really convey what it feels like to drive -- it makes 450nm of torque -- already at 1500 RPM. That's as much torque as my brutal beast of an E39 540i made, from its 4.4 liter V8, except the 540i got to that number only at 3600RPM. The sheer brutal force the little diesel can apply is incredible -- it's unbelievably fun to drive. While using less fuel than a Prius. I rent this car from time to time in the UK -- bless you, Sixt.

No Otto cycle car can do that.

Unfortunately, as is becoming increasingly apparent, the turbo diesel class has a major problem with emissions, particularly NOX. My Passat TDI emits about 15 times the regulatory limit of NOX, in real world driving. A recent study in the UK shows that it's actually one of the BEST emitters! 50 times is quite typical of the European turbo diesel fleet.

The small turbocharged gasoline engines also have problems with fine particulate emissions.

All the turbocharged engines, gasoline and diesel, have a problem where emissions are fine at light throttle openings, but go right down the spout at higher loads. The testing has all been done at very light loads, in the past. In around 2018, realistic road testing is being introduced. It's going to get interesting.

As the EU finally does something effective about protecting the population from automobile emissions, you will see the landscape change back towards larger capacities, less turbo assistance, and electric and hybrid cars.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by thomm225

You are really showing your age now comparing women to weak old people of 60 plus!

Today's women are a different breed than back in your day.

First of all, being old is a honor, not something to be made fun of. If you are very lucky, you may someday become old. There's only one alternative and that's not all that pleasant.

Second, women today, are no different than women a few years ago. On average, they are smaller and less muscular than men. Regardless, there are still "old" women around.

I don't think I would want to be involved romantically with a woman who could carry a 60 lb outboard up and down a ladder and swing it off the swim platform onto a dinghy transom.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by thomm225

It's like anything else, with the proper precautions you could store that engine in an enclosed space on a boat. Run tank dry. Open cap/remove cover and allow excess gas to evaporate etc

How about all the gasoline that is stored on boats in enclosed spaces without ventilation? I think you are allowed 7 gallons by law. The new tanks are excellent for this unlike the glass coke syrup bottles we used to store our gas in!

I've had my engine in the back of my jeep for a couple days with gas in it and had no problem. The cap still fits tight. Lawn mowers also

You have not thought this through and I'm glad you're not slipping your boat next to mine.

Gasoline powered boats have special fuel systems and parts to eliminate the possibility of liquid or vaporized gasoline from escaping. Your little (or big) outboard does not.

Your Jeep is not like a boat. It doesn't have an enclosed bilge to contain gasoline vapors.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Cottontop

Sigh. When EPA introduced the Tier regulations (which have been phased in over many years), extensive provisions were included giving engine and equipment manufacturers years to modify their equipment.

For every person inconvenienced by a heavier, more expensive and more complicated engine; many, many more are benefitted by cleaner air.

If cleaner air was that important, the EPA should ban recreational use of internal combustion engines. That would have us all sitting on the dock with a fishing pole.

It doesn't bother you so it's OK. I'll bet that if it did affect you, you would have a different position.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by rwidman

First of all, being old is a honor, not something to be made fun of. If you are very lucky, you may someday become old. There's only one alternative and that's not all that pleasant.

Second, women today, are no different than women a few years ago. On average, they are smaller and less muscular than men. Regardless, there are still "old" women around.

I don't think I would want to be involved romantically with a woman who could carry a 60 lb outboard up and down a ladder and swing it off the swim platform onto a dinghy transom.

I am old.........60 plus but still run a few miles a week and workout as a way to relax.

But the women are different as a whole today than they were a few years ago.

I didn't see many women on their own motorcycles back just a few years ago much less doing wheelies. (they call it surfing a bike these days!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ5rSScrOS4

Then there's Hope Solo who I'm sure can lift a sixty pound engine. She weighs 150 lbs and is quite the looker!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TFZwKdjcJA

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by rwidman

You have not thought this through and I'm glad you're not slipping your boat next to mine.

Gasoline powered boats have special fuel systems and parts to eliminate the possibility of liquid or vaporized gasoline from escaping. Your little (or big) outboard does not.

Your Jeep is not like a boat. It doesn't have an enclosed bilge to contain gasoline vapors.

It's like I said. You must have missed this:

It's like anything else, with the proper precautions you could store that engine in an enclosed space on a boat. Run tank dry. Open cap/remove cover and allow excess gas to evaporate etc

then store.......Get it? There would be no fumes left that would ignite

Btw, I've been using and storing outboards since age 16 and haven't had any problems to date

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by rwidman

If cleaner air was that important, the EPA should ban recreational use of internal combustion engines. That would have us all sitting on the dock with a fishing pole.

I think it would have very little effect, as very little fuel is burned by recreational use. If you really want to make an impact, do something that effects the largest users, autos are actually a big user.
It's sort of like the Friends of the Earth continuing to bring lawsuits to ban leaded aircraft fuel. leaded aircraft fuel use is about .001 percent of fuel use (made up number, as most stats are) I have no idea really, but it's a tiny fraction.
Another Urban legend, it seems as of many years ago the worst polluter of CO is actually barbecue grills. Autos are exceptionally clean now, but apparently a smoldering barbecue grill pollutes like mad as its a smoldering fire?
The Urban legend part is that grills in the Los Angles valley are the number one source of CO emissions.


OK found it, Avgas is .14% of motor gasoline consumed.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by thomm225

It's like I said. You must have missed this:

It's like anything else, with the proper precautions you could store that engine in an enclosed space on a boat. Run tank dry. Open cap/remove cover and allow excess gas to evaporate etc

then store.......Get it? There would be no fumes left that would ignite

Btw, I've been using and storing outboards since age 16 and haven't had any problems to date

I didn't miss anything. You posted the same thing you posted earlier and you're still wrong.

I suppose you could run the tank dry and leave the cap off for a month or so but who is going to do that? My wife was at the airport once when a guy tried to take a chain saw on an airplane to help hurricane victims. No dice. Empty or not, it's not flying.

The fact that you have never had a problem means you are lucky, nothing else.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by thomm225

I am old.........60 plus but still run a few miles a week and workout as a way to relax.

But the women are different as a whole today than they were a few years ago.

That is irrelevant. My wife is the same as she was a few years ago except that, like me, she is a few years older.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I think it would have very little effect, as very little fuel is burned by recreational use. .

Again, we would be sitting on the dock with a fishing pole. Anyone who claims to be an environmentalist can't really justify burning fuel to go places he/she doesn't need to go and that includes our boating trips.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by rwidman

Again, we would be sitting on the dock with a fishing pole. Anyone who claims to be an environmentalist can't really justify burning fuel to go places he/she doesn't need to go and that includes our boating trips.

But, but Al Gore flew in a Private Jet to accept his Nobel prize as an environmentalist, burning thousands of gallons of fuel to do so.
Nobody is as much of an environmentalist as the inventor of the Internet?