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Old 24-09-2021, 01:29   #256
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Ah-ha! Yep, my third photo is a rotation/reflection of your first image
Definitely a False Zeppelin.
Stu, you did well to reproduce it! I didn’t succeed last night with only Jammer’s capsized version to go by.

I have tied your version and Agent_smith’s and I agree one is a mirror image of the other. And they certainly capsize easily.

It did take some effort to tie this knot. Multiple errors needed to be made.

SWL

PS I have been using the Zeppelin bend exclusively to join lines for over seven years now. On some occasions the load has been high. I am still just as enamoured by this knot as I was in the early days. It fulfils every criterion I can think of apart from how well it performs using slippery line: it is easy to tie, easy to undo after high load is applied, secure (will not shake loose under water), stable (won’t slip), needs no dressing, can be easily modified if lines are of significantly different diameter.
Definitely the King of Knots .

Thanks for introducing me to it, Stu.

SWL
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Old 24-09-2021, 02:42   #257
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

for a minute there I thought this was another thread about the Led Zeppelin band
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Old 24-09-2021, 05:30   #258
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Ah-ha! Yep, my third photo is a rotation/reflection of your first image
Definitely a False Zeppelin.
Thank for doing the research. Something didn't look right but it was late and I was in no mood to go grab a couple of lines and try to reproduce it.

Long live the Zeppelin Bend!
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Old 29-09-2021, 04:44   #259
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Thank you, thank you SWL for the intro to the Zeppelin. So elegant in it's simplicity and so easy to untie when really loaded. Today I had to tow something and used the Zep for the first time in anger. It was TIGHT. Ahhh, joy at the untying.

Here is a vid by some guys who break test stuff, and this episode is bends and loops with the Zep, Alpine Butterfly, etc etc. At the end is a chart with their break results to compare them all. I thought it was interesting.

They have a serious pulley system test bed to break climbing gear, and these were the guys I was thinking of asking to break the dyneema JSD leader to bridle legs cow hitching

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Old 29-09-2021, 10:15   #260
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

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Originally Posted by agent_smith View Post
Hello 'Jammer'


Your photos lack the specific detail I need to determine precisely what you tied.
I can confirm that a correctly tied Zeppelin bend does not capsize or undergo any dynamic change under load.

I therefore suspect that you tied a 'False Zeppelin bend'.
Hopefully my photo inserts correctly...
I have been using Zeppelin bends for a dozen years now. I use a simple 6,9 method for tying (I like to call it a 69 knot). At first I thought that the first pic was a true Zeppelin but then had to get some line out and look (I deleted a post). The correct knot has the working ends exiting on opposite sides. There is however something deceiving about Agent Smith's second picture which supposedly shows what the first knot (which resembles a hunters bend) morphs into under load. In the second pic, the tail ends have been swapped for the working ends!
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Old 29-09-2021, 11:39   #261
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

I like knots, and I know the Zeppelin, I have knot books and knot apps on my phone — but what surprises me is this thread on the Zeppelin knot, 18 pages of comments spanning seven years. Good to know that there is more people like me out there!
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Old 29-09-2021, 11:45   #262
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
Thank you, thank you SWL for the intro to the Zeppelin. So elegant in it's simplicity and so easy to untie when really loaded. Today I had to tow something and used the Zep for the first time in anger. It was TIGHT. Ahhh, joy at the untying.

Here is a vid by some guys who break test stuff, and this episode is bends and loops with the Zep, Alpine Butterfly, etc etc. At the end is a chart with their break results to compare them all. I thought it was interesting.

They have a serious pulley system test bed to break climbing gear, and these were the guys I was thinking of asking to break the dyneema JSD leader to bridle legs cow hitching….
Hi BigBeakie
I am very glad you found this bend useful. I couldn’t quite believe how easily the Zeppelin untied the first time I used it in anger under high load.

Thanks for the link. As a confirmed knotaholic I considered it great fun watching this video not once, but twice .

For those not quite so keen to watch all the way through, this is a comparison of the breaking load for various bends using the same double braid Edelweiss 7mm line (polyester? with a nylon core). The figures are the average of three pulls. % differences probably won’t translate exactly to double braid polyester:

Sheet bend: 5.0 kN (lowest 4.7)
Butterfly bend: 15.8 kN (lowest 11.3)
Zeppelin Bend: 17.2 kN (lowest 16.2)
Flemish bend (= Figure 8): 17.6 kN (lowest 16.9)
Reever bend: 19.1 (lowest 18.0)
Double fisherman’s bend 19.1 kN (lowest 18.2)

My comments:
The Sheet bend stood out as being the worst by a long shot.

The Zeppelin bend performed a little better than the Butterfly, but it is possible that the difference is not statistically significant. The greater variability for the Butterfly may well be due to the difficulty with dressing this knot well.

I was not familiar with the Reever bend.

Some pulls broke at the attachment point (peak of a loop) rather than at the knot, affecting data. I also think the tails should have been left much longer. This may also have affected results.

Breaking strain is not the only determinant of good performance. Other factors such as how easily it can be shaken loose (the Sheet bend is dreadful in this regard), ease of untying (the Double Fisherman’s bend is near impossible to untie after severe load), performance with shock loads etc may also be more important depending on the circumstances.

I tend to use the Double or Triple Fishermans if the knot never needs to be untied and I have time on my hands.

SWL
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Old 29-09-2021, 11:53   #263
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

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Originally Posted by Thumbs Up View Post
?….There is however something deceiving about Agent Smith's second picture which supposedly shows what the first knot (which resembles a hunters bend) morphs into under load. In the second pic, the tail ends have been swapped for the working ends!
Hi ThumbsUp
I don’t think the tails have been “swapped”.
The configuration just looks different once load has been applied.
I will colour the sections in a moment to see if I can clarify what I mean.

SWL
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Old 29-09-2021, 12:01   #264
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

ThumbsUp, I hope this clarifies the situation:
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Old 29-09-2021, 13:00   #265
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

I didn't know the reever bend. I wonder if it jams. As for the false Zeppelin, now I see it both ways. If you grab the tail ends and flip it over, it looks the same. Maybe I didn't tie it correctly earlier (is there a wrong way to tie a false knot?) Anyway I am going to be practicing the river bend.

I found this:https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=6026.0
There is a variation that they are calling a "tripnip"

It seems like the river bend is a better choice for slippery line (dyneema) than the Zep.
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Old 29-09-2021, 14:01   #266
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

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…Anyway I am going to be practicing the river bend.

I found this:https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=6026.0
There is a variation that they are calling a "tripnip"

It seems like the river bend is a better choice for slippery line (dyneema) than the Zep.
I wouldn’t count on it .
I don’t think Evans Starzinger tested the Reever bend in dyneema, but most of the commonly used knots that he tried slipped, including the Double Fisherman’s bend. The few that held broke at around 50% of line strength.

Dyneema is dead easy to splice and to then attach to anything using a soft shackle, but it is useful to know which knots work best if you are in a hurry. If a hitch is needed I would use an EStar. Maybe two EStars could be used as a bend. Load testing has shown that a Water Bowline is about the best loop.

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Old 30-09-2021, 03:28   #267
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

One of the principal virtues of a bend that people seem to disregard a lot in their search for security is also the ability to undo it after it's been loaded. For this reason the alpine butterfly is my favorite bend--if you can't get it undone, you probably damaged the rope by pulling it so tight. While the Zeppelin is my second favorite, having the tails go off two directions looks kind of goofy.
I'm glad, at least, that no one here is contemplating the Euro Death Knot that climbing guides are currently recommending as a bend--they call it the "flat overhand." It works only because they use super-long tails and the loads are very small. You all might run across it on sites similar to those posted before.
As for bends suitable for Dyneema, well, unless it's an emergency I'd avoid it, but an alpine butterfly with an overhand tied in the tails so they can't suck back in would do.
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Old 30-09-2021, 04:20   #268
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

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While the Zeppelin is my second favorite, having the tails go off two directions looks kind of goofy.
If you don't want the tails at right angles, consider the reever bend instead of the zeppelin. It's not as easy to tie, but apart from that it is an excellent alternative.



I still go with the zeppelin as my first preference, but the reever is good if the "sticky out bits" are a problem iin a particular situation.
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Old 30-09-2021, 04:24   #269
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

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I didn't know the reever bend. I wonder if it jams.
Not a jammer. Like the zeppelin, you can roll the outer loops to loosen it.


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Old 30-09-2021, 17:52   #270
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Re: Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
If you don't want the tails at right angles, consider the reever bend instead of the zeppelin. It's not as easy to tie, but apart from that it is an excellent alternative.



I still go with the zeppelin as my first preference, but the reever is good if the "sticky out bits" are a problem iin a particular situation.
It would have to be demonstrably better than my go-to to make me want to learn it well enough to tie without thinking.
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