What size winch for going up the mast?

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by GILow

Really uncomfortable with the number of people recommending the anchor windlass.

There has already been a post referencing the gruesome outcome from when an electric winch went wrong. The same risks apply using a windlass, with the added complication that any jury rigged arrangement cobbled together to get the halyard winding onto the windlass cleanly is introducing many points of failure.

If people insist on electric winches, please think through what you are going to do if the power relay jambs. Some way of quickly cutting the power feed is essential.

And to all those that point out that windlass relays rarely jamb, sure, but you are about to use the windlass in a very different manner to how it is normally used. Anchoring, mine is straight down continuously with a burst down after attaching the snubber. Coming up it is also continuous with maybe a brief halt or two to let the boat move forward. Going up a mast will be on/off/on/off continuously as the ascending crew member negotiates spreaders, lights, radars… you name it. Many more short cycles. What will that do to the relay?

I am a huge fan of the Milwaukee drill (or equivalent) approach. Much smarter and safer.

Of course, as a solo sailor I’m stuck with ascenders combined with mast steps.

I'm not seeing the validity of your objection to using the anchor windlass.

In the first place the loads are not intermittent: we go up at a steady rate with few interruptions. This should not stress the electric components, and even if we did have stops, I don't see how that would induce any failure on the windlass.

But, the halyard is tended by a person who has the wherewithal to stop tailing if the windlass decides to keep going or something, and the Samson post is right at hand to belay the line. A bigger concern is if an untrained person is running the winch and accidentally allows the line to come off the top of the winch. But again, this is what the safety line is for.

As to the re-routing of the halyard tail to the windlass, yes, this is a potential trouble spot. The snatch blocks or deck pad eyes can (and have) failed but with a safety line it does not result in any issue.

I know that there are various ascenders an prusik knots and other ways to go up a mast. But when we need to go up the mast we need to NOW. Not half a day later after we've rigged the stuff. Whether at the dock or underway, going aloft is often needed and quickly. The electric winch or anchor windlass is quick, safe, and effective.

BTW, our Lewmar Concept 1 windlass and the buttons and relay have been in use without any significant servicing and without anything going wrong with them for over 30 years. This stuff is pretty reliable.

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by KayZee

In what winch do you use the drill with the adapter? How heavy is Jim?



Kurt

The winches on the 30 footer, were just what came with the boat, but they were two speed winches. On the present boat, the halyard winches are the Arco 40's. The winch bit fits all the winches. We use it all the time for rolling up the genoa for tacking. It is way faster than me!

Ann

[GILow]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I'm not seeing the validity of your objection to using the anchor windlass.



In the first place the loads are not intermittent: we go up at a steady rate with few interruptions. This should not stress the electric components, and even if we did have stops, I don't see how that would induce any failure on the windlass.



But, the halyard is tended by a person who has the wherewithal to stop tailing if the windlass decides to keep going or something, and the Samson post is right at hand to belay the line. A bigger concern is if an untrained person is running the winch and accidentally allows the line to come off the top of the winch. But again, this is what the safety line is for.



As to the re-routing of the halyard tail to the windlass, yes, this is a potential trouble spot. The snatch blocks or deck pad eyes can (and have) failed but with a safety line it does not result in any issue.



I know that there are various ascenders an prusik knots and other ways to go up a mast. But when we need to go up the mast we need to NOW. Not half a day later after we've rigged the stuff. Whether at the dock or underway, going aloft is often needed and quickly. The electric winch or anchor windlass is quick, safe, and effective.



BTW, our Lewmar Concept 1 windlass and the buttons and relay have been in use without any significant servicing and without anything going wrong with them for over 30 years. This stuff is pretty reliable.

I hear you, but I still think it is a big risk. I conceded that the probability of failure in this case is low, but the consequences could be very, very serious. Death or, more likely, spinal injuries, depending on what you hit on the way down.

Tailing onto an anchor windlass can go wrong, and given the ergonomics, I bet it would go wrong if the windlass jammed. The sort of human reaction to a jammed windlass will be the sort that feeds the free end of the line straight back into the mix.

Well done going up in one hit, I’ve never seen any other cruising couple achieve that. The popularity of the wireless headsets for the task is testimony to how fiddly it is to get up some masts.

The stuff about going up now, not a day later, is silly emotive talk. I’m rigged to ascend in a minute or two, it would take me longer to run a halyard safely to the anchor winch, so leave that sort of comment out of the discussion. And frankly, walking up to the mast with a right angled drill would be even faster still.

Each to their own, I’m just adding my counterpoint because for me, personally, the risk is too great. People can read my view and attribute whatever weight they wish to it, but I felt it was important to point out the risks of the approach.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Matt, do remember that in the event that the winch or windlass won't shut off, simply stopping tailing stops the ascent, even if the drum continues to rotate. Of course, this means that one does not use the self tailing feature of the winch whilst hoisting a body. And hoisting through a clutch is a big safety factor, no matter what is providing the grunt on the halyard.

We have done the deed in most of the available methods, and I like the halyard winch powered by the Milwaukee drill best: good speed, good control and no worries about it jamming "on".

Jim

Jim, you and the Admiral are very, very experienced yachties. The vast majority reading this thread are not.

I mention this because I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve had to remove the free end of sheets out from under the sheet winds on winches. For myself and for others.

When I am on top of my game the cockpit works like a well oiled machine, but on the bad days I am never surprised to see the primaries turn into a macrame lesson.

Humans under pressure often don’t work well. Reading the awful story of the jammed winch incident up thread (I haven’t read it for years, it still turns my stomach) shows just how simple problems snowball. A good sailor under pressure will release the tail tension nine times out of ten. A less experienced sailor maybe fewer times. But someone panicking dives forward, either releasing all tension or allowing the whole lot to bunch up. Who knows what will happen.

I don’t want to sound histrionic about it, I just think it is an avoidable risk. The drill really seems to be a smart compromise as well as being an altogether useful tool to have on board.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by GILow

... A good sailor under pressure will release the tail tension nine times out of ten. A less experienced sailor maybe fewer times. But someone panicking dives forward, either releasing all tension or allowing the whole lot to bunch up...

I would be very hesitant about putting my life in the hands of an inexperienced person.

[nmccubbin]

The mountaineering ascenders work well, but I do not see them doing anything that cannot be accomplished by the Prussik loop.
Ascenders cost money and have to be stored on board. Prussiks use junk rope

[GILow]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I would be very hesitant about putting my life in the hands of an inexperienced person.

I agree, and for better or worse, I’m dependent on myself for this stuff, so I have no choice in the experience brought to the task. [emoji51]

But even the very experienced among us can react badly under pressure. The purpose of most training is to overcome this problem by making tasks into some form of muscle memory.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I would be very hesitant about putting my life in the hands of an inexperienced person.

Many years ago when I first owned my s&S 30 I needed to go aloft one arvo in the marina. I was on my own, so I asked a neighboring crew for help. These were older men, both with far more years of experience than I had, so I naively thought that they would know their stuff. My bad!

With one grinding on the halyard winch and the other tailing, I'd made it around half way up when progress halted. I looked down to see what was the matter. Imagine my reaction when I saw that they had managed a wrap on the winch... and were happily unwinding the line from the drum with no one holding on to the tail. I think my grip on the mast left dents, but when the halyard went slack I held on whilst they re-wrapped the line on the winch barrel. Scared the crap out of me, and created an aversion to casual helpers on board.

Yes, I now know that I should have had an independent safety line, but then, well, not so well informed!

Jim

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Many years ago when I first owned my s&S 30 I needed to go aloft one arvo in the marina. I was on my own, so I asked a neighboring crew for help. These were older men, both with far more years of experience than I had, so I naively thought that they would know their stuff. My bad!



With one grinding on the halyard winch and the other tailing, I'd made it around half way up when progress halted. I looked down to see what was the matter. Imagine my reaction when I saw that they had managed a wrap on the winch... and were happily unwinding the line from the drum with no one holding on to the tail. I think my grip on the mast left dents, but when the halyard went slack I held on whilst they re-wrapped the line on the winch barrel. Scared the crap out of me, and created an aversion to casual helpers on board.



Yes, I now know that I should have had an independent safety line, but then, well, not so well informed!



Jim

I bet the leg and arm muscles weren't the only ones clenching tightly that day.

[paul2884]

My wife could/would not winch me up the mast, she uses a safety line around the winch and I use 2 climbing assenders on a second line. Much faster and easier than being winched and you are always secured to 2 tight lines, the person at the bottom only needing to look after 1 line not trying to winch and keep a safety line tight at the same time. It's not much more difficult then climbing a ladder, its just the rungs are attached to you and you move them with you!

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Matt, do remember that in the event that the winch or windlass won't shut off, simply stopping tailing stops the ascent, even if the drum continues to rotate. Of course, this means that one does not use the self tailing feature of the winch whilst hoisting a body. And hoisting through a clutch is a big safety factor, no matter what is providing the grunt on the halyard.

Jim

"Clutch is a big safety factor"? Are you saying the clutch is a positive, or a concern? We always have the halyard lead thru the clutch, and then to the winch. And hoist with it closed. If there's a runaway winch, you can just stop tailing and the clutch will hold. It's the same clutch that holds up the main, which is a lot more load than a 670 ft2 mainsail under wind load.

[Joli]

Several things:
Two halyards, always.
Tie the halyards to the bosun's chair, don't trust the shackles.
If using an electric winch, do not use the self tailing mechanism. If the power button fails it's impossible to get it out of the self tailer. (I've seen it happen)

We use an electric 56.3 and a Barient 32. The halyards are each rated for 18,000 pounds. I know it's overkill but 93' is a long way to fall.

[donradcliffe]

Before I bought the Milwaukee drill, the admiral and I used the anchor windlass. It had a gypsy on one side and a capstan on the other. I rigged the halyard snatch blocks so that overrides were unlikely, and they never occurred. We used that system on a doublehanded passages when circumstances required it.

Once we had the drill. we used the Lewmar 2 speed halyard winch in the low gear direction. She needed both hands for the drill, so we used the self tailer on the winch. She was careful to watch for any signs of the halyard slipping out of the self tailer, and would stop and fix things.

I have never used a safety halyard. It takes too many people and too much coordination. When I ascend or descend a mast, I always have one hand around a shroud or external halyard except when I am going by a spreader. If I can't hang by one hand for a few seconds, I have no business aloft.

The only time I had a problem was with a power halyard winch where they used the self tailer. The winch stuck on while I was approaching the top of the mast. I am still here because the winchman had the presence of mind to take the halyard out of the tailer. Ever since, I have two people on electric winches, one to tail and the other to push buttons.

Milwaukee makes a far better and more reliable tool than Lewmar.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

"Clutch is a big safety factor"? Are you saying the clutch is a positive, or a concern? We always have the halyard lead thru the clutch, and then to the winch. And hoist with it closed. If there's a runaway winch, you can just stop tailing and the clutch will hold. It's the same clutch that holds up the main, which is a lot more load than a 670 ft2 mainsail under wind load.

The clutch, as you say, is a positive safety factor. It will prevent a fall if the halyard comes off the winch (as in my scary example upthread) for any reason, and our current practice is similar to yours.

However, a clutch will not help with a power winch that sticks in the on position if the self tailing mechanism is in use (what I think of when you say "runaway winch"), so the advice to not use the self tailer on a power winch is correct.

Jim

[GILow]

The backup of another line is difficult if going up solo. I have nobody on hand to keep tension on a second halyard for me, so I put my ascenders on separate halyards, each made fast at the mast base.