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Old 25-01-2017, 16:40   #16
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Re: What do you all think

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Using a head sail off of a smaller sailboat for a storm sail. I'm reluctant to,ask, but was thinking of a jib off of a hobit cat for a storm foresail. Roughly the same size.

Any thoughts

Thank you in advance.

Dirk
Habit cats, are they from Middle Sea?

That would be very precioussssss.

Sorry, couldn't resist.
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Old 25-01-2017, 16:48   #17
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Re: What do you all think

Hallberg-Rassy probably has the original measurements for the various sails on your boat, as they're something that the designer calculates when drawing a boat. Though he may not get it right. And odds are his office will have said measurements around too.
Another, perhaps better, method is to work with a good sailmaker. And option number 3 is to contact other HR owners, or the owner's association.

Organizations like US Sailing www.USsailing.org should have info on storm sail sizing & construction. Ditto ORC & similar. Also, there's some good info on them in the Dashew's Offshore Cruising Encyclopedia vol II which is free for downloading. As is their book Surviving the Storm, & it too will have info on storm sails in it. SetSail FPB » Free Books
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Old 25-01-2017, 16:48   #18
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Re: What do you all think

Dirk,

You are EXTREMELY UNLIKELY to need two storm jibs for the same boat. Most of the miles you put on one will be off the wind, too. I would expect that one used storm jib would be enough, really. One thing done down in NZ, is to put a large high visibility colored patch on them, or make them entirely of bright colored heavy dacron, so that it is easier for others to see you in the daytime on rainy days.

Ann
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Old 25-01-2017, 16:59   #19
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Re: What do you all think

Touché on the cat comment. Guilty.

Ann don't think I need two storm jibs, but a second back up 150 jib, in case my regular one gets trashed. However I would like to think I'd have the real,storm jib up,,well in advance of a wind event.,,

Uncivilized, I'm a new blue water guy, I've not found much info on the HR33 on the HR site. I emailed HR, asking and got a nasty reply telling me they have zero info on my boat. FYI it's a 1970 model.

Again this was a FREE boat, I've got 10.000 imto now,,and well on my way to 20k by end of summer. Only insures for 30k even in as good of,shape this boats in.

I
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Old 25-01-2017, 17:20   #20
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Re: What do you all think

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Originally Posted by Dirk Williams View Post
Uncivilized, was over looking at the used boat store Don suggested, " Minnie's" they have a couple storm sails for reasonable prices.

How does one determine sizing for a specific boat. My need is for my HR 33. If I knew measurements and found a set, I'd snap them up.
Also need sea anchors and bow sea anchors.

Dirk

And thank you for your educating me.
According to Vigor the area of the storm jib should be 2.5% of the square of the height of the fore-triangle:
I for a Mistral 33 is 43'
43' squared is 1849sf
2.5% of that is 46sf.

Carol Hasse indicates Storm Staysail should be 25% of foretriange area. Reasonable assumption is that the storm jib is the same.
Mistrals fore-triangle is 258sf.
25% of that is 65sf.

On my boat the fore-triangle is 80sf and the standard storm jib is about 28sf so significantly larger than either of those 2 rules but it is also a fractional rig.

If I had your boat I would want a storm jib somewhere between 45 & 65 sf.

From EMarino's book typical proportions for a storm jib are
Luff- 1.00
Leech - .770
Foot - .427
Get a piece of graph paper and graph those ratios, then figure out the perpendicular as a ratio of the luff. Where X is that ratio and L is the luff length then:
Area = (1+X)*0.5 *L
or
L=(2*Area)/(1+X)

Figure out L for 45sf and for 65sf

Then you know the min and max luff length to look for on-line used. Luff length is the not particularly important, it's just how they tend to list the sails .
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Old 25-01-2017, 18:18   #21
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Re: What do you all think

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Same area maybe but probably not the same cloth weight. Storm sails need to be made of heavier stuff.
Exactly.

Sorry Dirk but the cloth would be wayyyyy too light. I have never used a Hobie jib but would expect the cloth to be either something like 3oz or 5oz. If sail recycling is your thing then hunt around for a staysail off something bigger.
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Old 25-01-2017, 20:30   #22
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Re: What do you all think

Dirk, just a comment: Have you given any thought to how much storage space you seem to be devoting to your sail inventory? Most of us don't carry many spare sails for this reason! If you have a genoa and a working jib and a storm jib, IMO no spares are required to be carried. Should one be trashed, you sail on using one of the other options... perhaps not optimal, but quite functional. If you plan to carry a trysail, the same argument applies to the mainsail.

If you start out with sails of appropriate weight and in good condition the chances of total failure are pretty small. In our 30 years of cruising we've had a few small tears and seam failures, but nothing we could not either ignore or repair in situ (touching wood surreptitiously). Spinnakers are not included in this evaluation! We have done a bit of preemptive stitching on worn seams and used a lot of stickyback as chafe protection, and this has stood us well. Eventually, sails loose so much of their proper shape that replacement is required, but this is a gradual process which allows you to pick your own time and place.

So, before you spend yourself into a divorce (!), give this a thought!

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Old 26-01-2017, 03:05   #23
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Re: What do you all think

I would echo what Ann and Jim have said, were are you going to put this lot. We are a little bit smaller and carry:

1 x 140% genoa
1 x 80% genoa
1 x storm jib (never used)
1 x main
1 x Cruising chute

The 80% jib is a little small for what I wanted but it only cost £50 and is almost brand, new coming from a racing keel boat. At a push it will replace the 140% genoa if this was damaged. Has extra luff tapes on it so the furling swivel stays up the furler at the correct height.

Along with the spare anchor and chain, a small diving cylinder and kit that takes up all the under v bearth storage.

The old main sail is at home in the loft waiting for spring before going on e bay. I don't have the space and the new one should last 10 years, so no piont in carrying the old one on board.

For reference, our storm jib is 75sq ft and was supplied by the manufacturer.

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Old 26-01-2017, 09:48   #24
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Re: What do you all think

A good set of used storm sails is the way to go. Cheap, probably not used too much, and a potential life saver.

Big mistake some people make is getting a storm sail that is too large! I speak from experience. I wish it had been about 1/2 the size.. when it blows really, really hard, you want less not more.

Also, while on the topic, if you are in a place where there's a lot of heavy weather sailing, think about a second reef on the main. Saved my bacon a time or two... well, at least made sailing much more pleasant.

I think it's a good idea to always have an extra sail or two around.... I'm amazed by the folks that think a roll of sail tape is all that's needed in an emergency!
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Old 26-01-2017, 10:04   #25
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Re: What do you all think

I don't think the question is whether to have a second reef. The question should be whether to have a third reef or a trysail.
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Old 26-01-2017, 10:12   #26
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Re: What do you all think

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I don't think the question is whether to have a second reef. The question should be whether to have a third reef or a trysail.
Roger that.
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Old 26-01-2017, 10:58   #27
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Re: What do you all think

If you can find an old but bigger sail and have a sewing machine it is often possible to cut out cloth and rebuild but not sure it is worth it. The cost of a storm jib is in the time it takes to do all the reinforcing and finishing not in the cloth. Used one are often a barging as they have probably never been used!
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Old 26-01-2017, 11:13   #28
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Re: What do you all think

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Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
I don't think the question is whether to have a second reef. The question should be whether to have a third reef or a trysail.
I would always prefer a deep third reef. There isn't much sillier in my eyes than planning to pull a never used sail out of the bag, try to figure out how to hook it up, then hoist a sail I have never used during a serious storm. Except maybe adding a second track to your mast and storing a storm sail on the boom all of the time for the once in a decade chance you might need it.

A deep third reef does everything that a storm sail does, is cheaper, and easier to deal with and works fine.
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Old 26-01-2017, 11:44   #29
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Re: What do you all think

Thank you all for your input.

The boats a 33.5 OAL, 25.5 in the water. Yes I have the space For extra sails. My currant sail package is.

New PEAK " blue water" sail with double reef points.
A 150 working Jib, in very good shape maybe it's a 140?
A 170? Genoa. In great shape.maybe it's a 160.
A lite air, jenniker, like new.
A spinnaker. In good shape.

I just purchased a good shape spare main, for 95.00 it's not exact to my main specs, but very very close.

I'm looking at a very good condition north sail 140 jib for a spare. Again under 100.00.

And if I found a set of storm sails reasonable, id purchase a set.

Don brought up the man/monkey analogy, I'm a New, blue water sailor. I'd rather be more prepared.then not enough.

As my confidence grows, and I better understand my equipment it's likely I will realize the extra main and jib,may not be needed. I spend a lot of time watching your tube vids, and see an awful lot of torn sails.

In retrospect, I also wish I would have commissioned PEAK to place a third set of reef points in my new main.

Only one main halyard up the mast. When the boat was given to me, the boom, the main sail, and the spinnaker pole were missing. " allegedly a hard surprise jib stripped all that gear off, and deep sixed it.

In the end, if these sails are not needed, I will gift them to a fellow sailor not as fortunate as me.

Something I'm fuzzy on is, the process of putting up a storm main.

In my minds eye wouldn't it look like this. Drop and secure main. Ru the tri up the mast, after securing the foot at the boom end clew? Is that the right name? Then hoist the tri up.

Go forward set the foot attachment to the deck plate, run your sheets back to,the cockpit, then hoist the fore tri sail.

How do, you guys pop the storm sails, what is the order you use?.

Thank you Dirk


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Old 26-01-2017, 12:22   #30
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Re: What do you all think

Probably the reason you see so many torn sails on you tube is because it's dramatic to film, especially when accompanied by music to set your heart thumping. It's exciting and makes you want to come back. I don't know if this is true for other CF members, but I've seen more torn headsails on moored boat that didn't have them properly secured when a squall or storm came through than I have elsewhere (about 30 yrs. cruising now). If you have very old, sun damaged cloth, yes, that sail is going to be a goner. Sails, in our experience, lose shape long before they get to the tear-on-the-dotted-line stage, and then, it's time for a new one! Avoid the terminal sun damage stage.

Like Stumble, we belong to the 3rd reef school. Our third reef is very deep, perhaps only 1/4 the size of the whole mainsail. (This is on a fractional, Solent rigged boat, with a big main.) But I would like to comment about the try-sail a bit. When you are wanting to hoist it, presumably, it will be in its bag on deck, and ready to go. Now, stop and think, It's been blowing 40 for hours, the wind --and more importantly-- the seas are building. You will find it exciting at least to be working on the deck then. Plan to make the job quickly and easily accomplished. Then go practice setting it in 20-25, to develop a little muscle memory for the situation, and start to learn what to expect. We have a little saying on I-2, "It sounds good when you say it fast." It means for us to take a minute to consider exactly how something is to be done.


In speaking of the attachment points for a sail, the head is where the halyard goes; the tack is where it is secured at the forward end of the foot, and the clew is where the sheet is attached.


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