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Old 09-03-2017, 02:06   #106
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re: Unveiling the BB Soft Shackle

Thanks SL and Stu,
I made my first one tonight! Once I got past that misunderstanding, it was all downhill again. I'll pretension it tomorrow but it's 4am. I pretensioned the first "Colligo" style shackles and a strop with AL toggle with my truck and another truck. I figured it is at least a thousand pounds of pull putting my truck in 4x4 Low. In fact, I ended up dragging the other truck a few inches when I eased on the gas. Both fullsize F-150 crew cabs. I'll try to rig something so the button gets pulled evenly/straight.

Either way, with 5/16" Amsteel rated at 13,700lbs I will need to hook to something a little bigger to really set it in. Thanks again for the instructions!

Ronnie
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Old 09-03-2017, 02:09   #107
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re: Unveiling the BB Soft Shackle

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Old 09-03-2017, 09:18   #108
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re: Unveiling the BB Soft Shackle

In hindsight, I forgot to put the washer on first before the two eyes. Just made for some irregular marks on the button knot sides. Other than that it's tight and looks great. Click image for larger version

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Old 09-03-2017, 10:32   #109
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re: Unveiling the BB Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailRedemption View Post
In hindsight, I forgot to put the washer on first before the two eyes. Just made for some irregular marks on the button knot sides. Other than that it's tight and looks great. Attachment 142769
Sail Redemption, well done! Glad you have conquered the button stopper. It is my all time favourite stopper . I have lately been practising tying it with my eyes closed and it is achievable .

Regarding pretentioning, I do that routinely now on the advice of Evans Starzinger. I adhere to the "belt and britches" philosophy so anything I can do easily to improve safety seems like sound procedure to me.

Having said that, we had at least a year's use of soft shackles (the original Colligo style ones) holding our boat (snubber to chain connection) before I started pre-tensioning them and no significant movement occured.

However, tensioning them well initially is very important I think. I do that by hand pulling on the components with a Marlin spike, then tugging on a vice (or getting my stronger husband to tug on the vice for me). Sudden load applied either during use or during the pretensioning procedure is not good, so whatever method of applying load (via car or winch), I would recommend doing that gradually.

Cheers,
SWL
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Old 11-03-2017, 20:58   #110
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re: Unveiling the BB Soft Shackle

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Sail Redemption, well done! Glad you have conquered the button stopper. It is my all time favourite stopper . I have lately been practising tying it with my eyes closed and it is achievable .

Regarding pretentioning, I do that routinely now on the advice of Evans Starzinger. I adhere to the "belt and britches" philosophy so anything I can do easily to improve safety seems like sound procedure to me.

Having said that, we had at least a year's use of soft shackles (the original Colligo style ones) holding our boat (snubber to chain connection) before I started pre-tensioning them and no significant movement occured.

However, tensioning them well initially is very important I think. I do that by hand pulling on the components with a Marlin spike, then tugging on a vice (or getting my stronger husband to tug on the vice for me). Sudden load applied either during use or during the pretensioning procedure is not good, so whatever method of applying load (via car or winch), I would recommend doing that gradually.

Cheers,
SWL
Eyes closed?! Now you're just showboating! (: I don't think it was all too hard, I think it could be made easier to do for beginners. For example, if you are using light colored dyneema, you could get a colored marker and put a trace line along each tail line to help differentiate the two when tying the button. This would also help in tightening it up.

Agreed on the tensioning. I don't think it is hard to find some way to tension the shackles initially.
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Old 12-03-2017, 00:11   #111
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re: Unveiling the BB Soft Shackle

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Eyes closed?! Now you're just showboating! (:
LOL! I am just perfecting it as a party trick .

I have been watching more movies lately, so a scrap of rope has been in my hands more often. Tying knots with eyes closed in the boring bits of the movie really reinforces them in muscle memory. I recommend anyone tying knots learns to do this. In an emergency, you want the knot tying procedure to be automatic.

The first time I had a go with the Button with my eyes closed I didn't get far. Dressing the Button (tightening it up) was actually eventually the hardest bit. The legs are a bit of a mess before tightening.

The Button is not for emergencies , but learning to tie it with eyes closed does make it an absolute breeze when you have your eyes open, so I find it extremely useful for that reason.

SWL
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Old 09-04-2017, 06:42   #112
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re: Unveiling the BB Soft Shackle

Did a couple small 4mm shackles the other day using 230Z measurement. Being the line is so small, it was a little harder with the button, but I got it done without too much difficulty. Needed these to connect our mainsheet car lines to the car stoppers on each side.

The strop with eye was to replace a small block that was a fairlead on our toe rail for the staysail furling line. This is lighter, quieter so it shouldn't make as much a racket on the toerail. It was made out of 3mm and is just a grog splice because it's easy and this will never get close to load bearing just being a fairlead. Click image for larger version

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Old 09-04-2017, 07:54   #113
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re: Unveiling the BB Soft Shackle

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailRedemption View Post
Did a couple small 4mm shackles the other day using 230Z measurement. Being the line is so small, it was a little harder with the button, but I got it done without too much difficulty. Needed these to connect our mainsheet car lines to the car stoppers on each side.

The strop with eye was to replace a small block that was a fairlead on our toe rail for the staysail furling line. This is lighter, quieter so it shouldn't make as much a racket on the toerail. It was made out of 3mm and is just a grog splice because it's easy and this will never get close to load bearing just being a fairlead. Attachment 144985
The soft shackles look just beautiful!

I can't help but make a comment about the LF ring though .
I know yours will only be used as a fairlead and forces may not be high if the angle of deflection is very low, but you may need to use a LF ring in other applications.
If the ring is clenched so that the ring cannot dislodge then the tearing force at the throat will be around 30-40% of the load applied (it depends on ring size and manufacturer).

Try the Bullseye weave instead . It can be made in loop form.

SWL
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Unveiling Bullseye strops for low friction rings
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Old 09-04-2017, 15:19   #114
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re: Unveiling the BB Soft Shackle

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The soft shackles look just beautiful!

I can't help but make a comment about the LF ring though [emoji3].
I know yours will only be used as a fairlead and forces may not be high if the angle of deflection is very low, but you may need to use a LF ring in other applications.
If the ring is clenched so that the ring cannot dislodge then the tearing force at the throat will be around 30-40% of the load applied (it depends on ring size and manufacturer).

Try the Bullseye weave instead . It can be made in loop form.

SWL
Yea, I did that method because it was easy and because I knew the loads were minimal. If I were making a legitimate ring strop I would have did more research. I tried looking through Dockhead's thread about strops but did not, at the time, feel like learning anything more complex than the grog. I look into the bullseye weave next time. My main concern for this would be ring retention because when the line isn't tight the ring could flop around potentially coming out. So I went around the ring twice and cinched the whipping up a little tighter than necessary. Although, the whipping is fairly loose dyneema 1.5mm thread.

Always learning!
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Old 30-06-2017, 05:22   #115
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Re: Unveiling the BB Soft Shackle

Photobucket no longer allows posting of images unless a few hundred is paid yearly, so to view images you need to click on the link. Sorry about this. Further images will be downloaded via Imgur.

---------

I am just in the process of making another batch of soft shackles so I have updated instructions. The more I make and use and observe carefully when they are under load on a winch to pretighten them, the more I learn and the more the method evolves.

I have altered two seemingly minor things in the instructions in post # 49, but I think they may make a difference to ultimate strength:

1. I have increased noose size from being able to hold 4 lines snuggly, to holding 6-8 lines. Online instructions are non specific for this ("form a noose/eye" is about the best I can find) for high strength soft shackles. For ones using the Diamond stopper holding 1-1.5 line diameters is recommended.

I initially made noose size big enough to fit 4 line diameters, but as the legs pass obliquely through the noose, I started bumping this up to 5-6. The latest lot have been made to fit 8 lots of line and to me this looks perfect. It is still much smaller than the stopper size, so I don't think security is an issue. The size means the throat of the noose is 2-3 : 1, reducing stress on it. It tightens up quickly and easy without being restricted by the legs (this may make a difference if load is applied suddenly before the legs of the soft shackle have equalised well). I like it . I am finding it easier to mark the dyneema noose size rather than fiddling with inserting 8 bits of line in to make the noose. Length needed for the inner part of the noose is 12 x line diameter.

2. I initially wrote to milk the cover on the central bury. I have found that it tends to then bounce when you let go, so I have added in bold to hang on and tape firmly to avoid this before proceeding further.

-----------

To allow the legs to easily equalise well, I am making the length of central bury smaller if I am making the soft shackle a little longer to allow a 30 x line diameter bury of the tails when I want a "high strength" version. I know is simpler to eliminate any central bury at all, but I have found even a small amount of bury improves handling quite a bit. The legs don't flop around then and the opening procedure is very neat.

SWL

This is how my "high strength" version of the BB looks:

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Old 22-01-2020, 11:38   #116
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Re: Unveiling the BB Soft Shackle

SWL,


You mentioned in one of your posts, shortcut to using 12 diameters as the length of the closed loop.


Being the enginerd I am, I did a quick little geometry. If I were designing the loop, I would have arrived at 11.


I am getting ready to make my first soft shackles, these are for overlanding and will be 9/16" amsteel. I perused all of the information I could find and had started to draw out a soft shackle with a lock and bury before two legs into a button knot. Voila, I stumbled are your latest creation and you have pre engineered my thinking for me and provided crystal clear instructions. Thank you so much.


In closing, I am also a sailor and will be making them for the boat as well.
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Old 04-12-2020, 13:22   #117
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Re: Unveiling the BB Soft Shackle

Thank you, Seaworthy Lass, for your wonderful instruction (post #49).

After finishing my trampoline lacing, I had scrap pieces of 3mm left over. Making a few BBSSs, I discovered that the size of the finished soft shackle opening is :
Final=(Line Length - 130Z) /3.6

Now I know how much line is needed for a desired size!
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Old 06-12-2020, 02:55   #118
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Re: Unveiling the BB Soft Shackle

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Originally Posted by SaltyPaws1 View Post
Thank you, Seaworthy Lass, for your wonderful instruction (post #49).

After finishing my trampoline lacing, I had scrap pieces of 3mm left over. Making a few BBSSs, I discovered that the size of the finished soft shackle opening is :
Final=(Line Length - 130Z) /3.6

Now I know how much line is needed for a desired size!
Hi SaltyPaws

Nicely done .

Three years down the track, this is an update on what I am doing:

- Lately, instead of a central bury I have been tending to simply pass one leg directly through the other so that it creates a lock if the eye is opened very widely. I am only using very short central buries (even shorter than in the last photo from June 2017) if I need a longer soft shackle. Doing either of these things means the legs are not left loose to flap around, as they are in Kohlhoff style soft shackles. I donít know if this can cause the eye to loosen when not under load, but it certainly looks disconcerting and it does improve handling.

- I am making all my buries 30 x line diameter so that when I reach for any soft shackle I donít have to think whether it is a low or high strength one.

- I am still making my eyes capable of holding 8 lots of line (snugged tightly before the line is removed), occasionally 6, but no less. Even when care is taken, once the soft shackle has been pretensioned the legs can shift slightly in length and it is critical that the eye does not end up too small, as the final strength of the shackle will then plummet. This will occur far more easily with longer central buries as the legs shift more relative to each other under load. The aim is to create an eye, not a noose, without it being oversized.

Our boat is now littered with dozens of soft shackles, doing anything from heavy duty tasks (eg connections for the boom break, headsail sheets & halyards & tacks, snubber, blocks etc) to lightweight tasks such as securing coiled lines.

These are little marvels .

SWL
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Unveiling Bullseye strops for low friction rings
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Old 13-03-2021, 04:01   #119
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Re: Unveiling the BB Soft Shackle

While I like the BB shackle, I don't do it often enough to remember the steps in the button. Next I'm going with the simpler, easily remembered, overhand stopper. Sadly, in this video they fail to pre-tension the stopper before break testing.

https://youtu.be/jU_mmdbQeCQ
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Old 23-03-2021, 12:55   #120
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Re: Unveiling the BB Soft Shackle

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In hindsight, I forgot to put the washer on first before the two eyes. Just made for some irregular marks on the button knot sides. Other than that it's tight and looks great. Attachment 142769
Which is the better method of pretensioning, end to end, or with the shackle closed up?
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