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Old 02-05-2018, 07:37   #181
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re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops for low friction rings

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Wow, how extraordinarily kind of you!

I will quickly design our drogue and let you know; thanks!
I calculated the diameter of Acera based on recommendations using polyester. As the exact strength equivalent was not available, I went for the next size up.

I ended up with just over 30m each of 8mm, 10mm and 12mm Acera, plus extra 12mm for the bridle. Your length required will be greater, but I think the diameter will probably be the same.

SWL

I was thrilled to find what a small lightweight bundle this made (the orange was thrown in to give an idea of size):
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Unveiling Bullseye strops for low friction rings
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Old 02-05-2018, 07:42   #182
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re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops for low friction rings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
I calculated the diameter of Acera based on recommendations using polyester. As the exact strength equivalent was not available, I went for the next size up.

I ended up with just over 30m each of 8mm, 10mm and 12mm Acera, plus extra 12mm for the bridle. Your length required will be greater, but I think the diameter will probably be the same.

SWL

I was thrilled to find what a small lightweight bundle this made (the orange was thrown in to give an idea of size):
That is fabulous. You mean the next size DOWN from polyester, right? Or the next size up from the rough equivalent strength in Acera?

What is the displacement of your boat?

Where did you get the design documents? One of my crewmen is supposed to be doing our design, but I may have a look myself.

Did you make your own cones, or did you get them from Ocean Brake?
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Old 02-05-2018, 08:34   #183
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re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops for low friction rings

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
That is fabulous. You mean the next size DOWN from polyester, right? Or the next size up from the rough equivalent strength in Acera?

What is the displacement of your boat?

Where did you get the design documents? One of my crewmen is supposed to be doing our design, but I may have a look myself.

Did you make your own cones, or did you get them from Ocean Brake?
I based the length and strength and roughly the tapering of line, as recommended by Jordan in the Coastguard report:
http://www.jordanseriesdrogue.com/pd...uardreport.pdf

For our boat's weight, the original specifications called for 35m each of 13mm, 19mm and 22-25mm double braid polyester (minimum breaking force of very roughly 4000, 8000 & 11000-13000 kgf), plus the bridle.

I looked up the exact lengths I ordered and it was actually significantly more than 30m estimated in my earlier post, as I allowed a generous amount for splicing and the bridle, plus extra for other things such as soft shackles, loops and both ends of the snubber. I ordered 40m each of 8mm and 10mm Acera and 60m of the 12mm (minimum breaking force of 6650, 10400 & 14980 kgf).

When deciding on the diameter of Acera ordered, I looked at the strength of polyester required and tried to match this. An exact match was not possible, so I went for greater strength. The drawbacks to this are only higher cost and slightly higher weight and volume. If the lower strength is chosen and this is in fact too low, it could be a major problem.

164 cones were ordered from OceanBrake in the UK (suitable for 50,000 dispacement, the closest I could estimate fully laden for cruising). I am very pleased with the quality. Heavy dacron was used (sold as 7oz). Both edges are hemmed. These should hopefully not encounter the same problems reported when using the flimsier unhemmed cones. The price was roughly half that from Ace Sailmakers in the US, calculated using conversion rates current late last year.

This is how the cones look. The hemming is done using bias tape that has been stitched on:
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Unveiling Bullseye strops for low friction rings
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Old 02-05-2018, 17:02   #184
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re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops for low friction rings

SWL,

Let me just say how valuable your work has been to us as we prepare for our new cat to get wet. We got our samples of Acera and its great.
Did you by chance see the daGama and if so what did you think? Pretty stiff isnt it?

Big congrats on the launch, she's a rippa!




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Old 02-05-2018, 23:04   #185
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re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops for low friction rings

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
SWL,

Let me just say how valuable your work has been to us as we prepare for our new cat to get wet. We got our samples of Acera and its great.
Did you by chance see the daGama and if so what did you think? Pretty stiff isnt it?

Big congrats on the launch, she's a rippa!
Many thanks . I am still looking around in utter disbelief that this is our boat/home.

I haven't handled any Acera daGama. I also havenít found a product sheet for it, just a simple description. Do you know how thin it comes?

The Acera Amundsen I bought is super stiff, presumably because of the coatings. I found a quick dip in warm water instantly softens up the rope so it can be easily knotted. A rep from Timms gave me that tip. The "waxy" coating actually makes the finished product just beautiful to handle. There is no fluffing up of fibres, as you get with many brands of other HMPE ropes. I am becoming a huge fan .

SWL
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Old 03-05-2018, 02:05   #186
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re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops for low friction rings

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Many thanks . I am still looking around in utter disbelief that this is our boat/home.

I haven't handled any Acera daGama. I also havenít found a product sheet for it, just a simple description. Do you know how thin it comes?

The Acera Amundsen I bought is super stiff, presumably because of the coatings. I found a quick dip in warm water instantly softens up the rope so it can be easily knotted. A rep from Timms gave me that tip. The "waxy" coating actually makes the finished product just beautiful to handle. There is no fluffing up of fibres, as you get with many brands of other HMPE ropes. I am becoming a huge fan .

SWL
You will have to guard against permanent smile wrinkles, nay creases. Ahh, an unexpected danger of creating such a gorgeous vessel

I can attach the product spec sheet for daGama, it comes in 6mm all the way up to 96mm in 2 mm increments. But if you thought Amundsen was a bit stiff, you ain't seen nothin' yet. I think it is better for some shipping or heavy lifting applications. I was hoping it would be Amundsen with a plaited poly cover but it was way stiff so I cut off an end piece of my 12mm sample and picked it apart. The cover is 1mm thick 24 plait spun HMPE fine fibers ( it can be polyester though) and it is glued to the core with what looks like contact adhesive. And the core is not 12 strand braided, it is 12 strand spiral and the bundles are also glued together with sticky contact like adhesive. So no way to splice it like regular Amundsen or dyneema. It would be massively chafe resistant.

However, as a warp for our Abbott drogue idea, it may have merit in being much less prone to tangle?

But they are working on something for me, so let's wait and see what they come up with for sheets. guys, control lines etc.
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Old 03-05-2018, 03:31   #187
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re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops for low friction rings

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
You will have to guard against permanent smile wrinkles, nay creases. Ahh, an unexpected danger of creating such a gorgeous vessel

I can attach the product spec sheet for daGama, it comes in 6mm all the way up to 96mm in 2 mm increments. But if you thought Amundsen was a bit stiff, you ain't seen nothin' yet. I think it is better for some shipping or heavy lifting applications. I was hoping it would be Amundsen with a plaited poly cover but it was way stiff so I cut off an end piece of my 12mm sample and picked it apart. The cover is 1mm thick 24 plait spun HMPE fine fibers ( it can be polyester though) and it is glued to the core with what looks like contact adhesive. And the core is not 12 strand braided, it is 12 strand spiral and the bundles are also glued together with sticky contact like adhesive. So no way to splice it like regular Amundsen or dyneema. It would be massively chafe resistant.

However, as a warp for our Abbott drogue idea, it may have merit in being much less prone to tangle?

But they are working on something for me, so let's wait and see what they come up with for sheets. guys, control lines etc.
Thanks for all the first hand info. The only data I had previously found showed diameter starting at 20mm.

If you are looking for something super chafe resistant that can be spliced, have you considered Acera Barentz? It is 12 strand with each strand double braid, both cores and covers in Acera. I have seen no splicing instructions, but I recently nailed 12 strand using Tiptoe Twelve and I imagine the same technique should work very well.

Timms are coming up with some fabulous stuff. They could with some tips regarding improving the soft shackle design they are using though .

SWL

This is Acera Barentz:
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Old 03-05-2018, 04:30   #188
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re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops for low friction rings

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Thanks for all the first hand info. The only data I had previously found showed diameter starting at 20mm.

If you are looking for something super chafe resistant that can be spliced, have you considered Acera Barentz? It is 12 strand with each strand double braid, both cores and covers in Acera. I have seen no splicing instructions, but I recently nailed 12 strand using Tiptoe Twelve and I imagine the same technique should work very well.

Timms are coming up with some fabulous stuff. They could with some tips regarding improving the soft shackle design they are using though .

SWL

This is Acera Barentz:
Maybe you could consult to them as the soft shackle guru?

Yes they seem very innovative and open to new ideas, I like that. The yachting market would be a tiny sliver of their marine business however. But a good dyneema core-polyester tight woven braid cover, at their competitive pricing, would make a splash I'm sure. I'd sure buy it, compared to some of the $20 a meter stuff.

A wee question for you, Does a Brummel splice weaken the dyneema by concentrating force at a point where it passes through itself at the eye? Would a tuck and bury splice be stronger, for say our Antal halyard tensioners?

Aren't those tensionerss the bees knees for de-cluttering the mast! Love 'em.
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Old 03-05-2018, 09:23   #189
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re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops for low friction rings

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
Maybe you could consult to them as the soft shackle guru?

Yes they seem very innovative and open to new ideas, I like that. The yachting market would be a tiny sliver of their marine business however. But a good dyneema core-polyester tight woven braid cover, at their competitive pricing, would make a splash I'm sure. I'd sure buy it, compared to some of the $20 a meter stuff.

A wee question for you, Does a Brummel splice weaken the dyneema by concentrating force at a point where it passes through itself at the eye? Would a tuck and bury splice be stronger, for say our Antal halyard tensioners?

Aren't those tensionerss the bees knees for de-cluttering the mast! Love 'em.
The yachting market would be miniscule for them. I imagine customer orders from the fishing/towing industry would run to hundreds of metres in large diameters each time. They have not targetted sailors.

I came across Acera purely accidentally when I visited a fishing chandlery in Harlingen (NE Netherlands). It is highly regarded, not considered a product inferior to dyneema.

A Brummel lock does possibly weaken the splice slightly, but load tests results I have seen have not found statistically significant differences. A simple bury splice needs to be lock stitched to stop any risk of the tail slipping out when the load is released. I think it is likely that poorly done lock stitching poses a dramatically greater problem than the slight reduction in strength with a Brummel lock. I would go with a Brummel without any hesitation.

What does weaken strength significantly is an inadequate amount of bury and inadequate tapering. I make the bury length 72x line diameter (Samson Rope's recommendations) and taper a third of this evenly.

Yes, the Antal halyard tensioners are simply the bees knees .

SWL
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Old 03-05-2018, 13:48   #190
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re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops for low friction rings

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
The yachting market would be miniscule for them. I imagine customer orders from the fishing/towing industry would run to hundreds of metres in large diameters each time. They have not targetted sailors.

I came across Acera purely accidentally when I visited a fishing chandlery in Harlingen (NE Netherlands). It is highly regarded, not considered a product inferior to dyneema.

A Brummel lock does possibly weaken the splice slightly, but load tests results I have seen have not found statistically significant differences. A simple bury splice needs to be lock stitched to stop any risk of the tail slipping out when the load is released. I think it is likely that poorly done lock stitching poses a dramatically greater problem than the slight reduction in strength with a Brummel lock. I would go with a Brummel without any hesitation.

What does weaken strength significantly is an inadequate amount of bury and inadequate tapering. I make the bury length 72x line diameter (Samson Rope's recommendations) and taper a third of this evenly.

Yes, the Antal halyard tensioners are simply the bees knees .

SWL
Thanks for that SWL, will go with the Brummel then. and thanks for everything.

If anything interesting comes of my discussions with Timms, I'll be in touch.
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Old 04-05-2018, 21:12   #191
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re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops for low friction rings

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Thanks for that SWL, will go with the Brummel then. and thanks for everything.



If anything interesting comes of my discussions with Timms, I'll be in touch.

Iím also looking for the ropes to make up a JSD with the cones we bought and have just received from OceanBrake. We bought 156 cones at their recommendation for our boat. The cones are much smaller than I expected but as SWL has demonstrated seem to be well made.

The double braid nylon specifications for our drogue are 22mm, 18mm and 14mm for bridles and leader, middle section, and tail section respectively, and a total length of rope of 145m, weighing 38kg. In Dyneema SK78 and Acera Amundsen that works out to 12mm, 10mm and 8mm and weighs 8kg - much easier to handle. Weíve got a great local supplier of rope that weíve used for most of running rigging replacement, but the cost of the drogue in Dyneema is about NZD3000 (versus about NZD1800 for the double braid nylon option). Iím keen to get a comparison quote for Acera.

Iíve contacted Wilhelmsen, the parent company of Timms, but theyíve been unable to point me to a distributor or supplier who can sell us the rope. They gave me a contact at Timms in Slovakia who is looking into getting us the rope ex-factory, with splicing thrown in. Weíll see what comes of that.

If that doesnít work, does anyone know of a store that will take our order and ship the rope? Iíve sent an email to the chandlery that SWL used, but I havenít got a reply from them yet.
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Old 04-05-2018, 22:53   #192
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re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops for low friction rings

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If that doesnít work, does anyone know of a store that will take our order and ship the rope? Iíve sent an email to the chandlery that SWL used, but I havenít got a reply from them yet.
Hi fxykty
Steemar, the fishing chandlery I used closed late last year, but the one next door is still open. I purchased the last lot of Acera from them at the same price:
CIV Lauwersoog - Harlingen CIV Lauwersoog – Harlingen |

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Old 04-05-2018, 23:00   #193
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Re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops for low friction rings

Talk to Grant, at chains ropes and anchors in wairau road....
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Old 04-05-2018, 23:50   #194
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Re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops for low friction rings

I have just made the very first Bullseye soft shackle using Acera.

I am working on a new snubber system for our boat and two of these will be used to deflect the snubber as it runs along the deck and it will also keep the snubber running above deck level.

I will post details on the entire system when it is completed, but for now this is a photo of how it looks:
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Old 05-05-2018, 03:51   #195
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Re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops for low friction rings

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
I have just made the very first Bullseye soft shackle using Acera.

I am working on a new snubber system for our boat and two of these will be used to deflect the snubber as it runs along the deck and it will also keep the snubber running above deck level.

I will post details on the entire system when it is completed, but for now this is a photo of how it looks:
Beautiful!!

Concerning your snubber system: Last summer I pulled a sheet lead block through the deck . Without hardly slowing down (we briefly furled the jib), I snapped a dyneema strop onto a cleat, rereeved the sheet through the low friction eye, and kept on sailing. That took probably three minutes, and it worked absolutely beautifully, and I sailed another 1000 trouble free miles with this arrangement. I actually felt better about using the strop than a block, because you don't worry about damaging it with the very high loads from my carbon jib. If you do damage it, just toss it and make another. A block mounted through the deck is an entirely different story . . . .

These strops and low friction eyes are absolutely brilliant for uses like your snubber lead. How did we ever live without them? I'm finding it difficult to remember . . .
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