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Old 09-07-2024, 18:59   #16
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Re: Twisted double braid

Some very good information in here and some totally bogus.

For almost all twist, it is how you coil a line. A Figure-8 coil, or an alternate hitch coil will fix 90% of all twists.

Winches do NOT continuously add twists to the line. They can't. The geometry does not allow it. You wrap four turns around the winch, and you put four twists in the line. You unwrap the same four twists, and guess what? Those twists reverse themselves. It certainly makes absolutely no difference if the winch is self-tailing or not. There are a few cases where if you let the twists go roll off the end of the line, that they can add up, but this is rarely the case with halyards.

When I was doing my Captain's License course, I got in a friendly argument with my instructor (A former USCG Bosun) about how to coil lines to avoid twists. We settled the argument in the parking lot by coiling lengths of flat webbing where the twists can be easily seen. Figure 8 coils (or alternate hitch) are the way to go. If you are coiling lines where both ends are free (like dock lines) it doesn't matter that much, since twists can easily fall off the ends. If one end of the line is fixed, like a sheet or halyard, it matters A LOT.
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Old 09-07-2024, 19:39   #17
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Re: Twisted double braid

"Shake your tail feathers baby", gets out the twists.
For sheets the 8-plait/12-plait lines are so much kindlier/sloppy/floppy.
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Old 10-07-2024, 03:32   #18
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Re: Twisted double braid

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie View Post
You wrap four turns around the winch, and you put four twists in the line. You unwrap the same four twists, and guess what? Those twists reverse themselves.
Not when the reverse twists have now been left a long way down towards the tail. When the line is flung off the winch the twisted section will race forward without any reversal. In addition, when coiling the line, the reverse twists likely moved even closer to the tail or may even have been shaken right out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie View Post
Winches do NOT continuously add twists to the line. They can't. The geometry does not allow it.
Well, if you are so convinced that it is not possible for winches to continuously add twist then it seems unlikely anything additional written here will alter this.

For everyone else, carefully read all the posts in the two threads discussing this issue. Some very knowledgeable people contributed valuable information regarding the effect of the line having a high entry angle to the winch (this induces continual rolling of the line PRIOR to the flange when the line is winched in). This effect can easily be observed if you are alert.

Pulling a line in by hand for as long as possible minimises this.
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Old 10-07-2024, 03:59   #19
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Re: Twisted double braid

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Originally Posted by jamhass View Post
I found that doing a "proper" figure-8 flake every time I put a line to bed really avoided twist problems. By "proper" I mean holding the line with my thumb on top, adding some comfortable pressure on the line as I pull it back from the f-8 coil. This runs any twist towards the tail. If I had a lot of twist, I occasionally had to shake the tail out and continue. Religiously doing this worked fine for me.

Also, I pulled and washed all my running rigging annually which helped keep the lines nice and supple, which I assumed helped in the long run.

I never saw a need to move to more drastic measures.
Just curious, the twist mostly happens at the winch, so the twist in the tail is the reverse of the twist in front of the winch. So shaking out the tail twist just leaves all the twist in front of the winch?
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Old 10-07-2024, 04:30   #20
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Re: Twisted double braid

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyOz View Post
Just curious, the twist mostly happens at the winch, so the twist in the tail is the reverse of the twist in front of the winch. So shaking out the tail twist just leaves all the twist in front of the winch?

Where did the assumption that there is reverse twist in front of the winch come from? There is some logic here I'm not understanding.


In the case of a halyard, if there is twist in the tail, the tail and its twist is drawn past the winch (most of the turns off), through the clutch, and up the mast when the sail is lowered. Some stays, and more is added in the next cycle unless removed. Prevention has been described.


If there is twist in a system, the cure for the twist already in the system is to remove the twist several cycles in a row. In the case of tackle, pulling them bock-to-block helps. If the tackle is inside a boom, you may have to force the reverse twist in by twisting the rope while easing. A pain, but only done once, to remediate an error.
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Old 10-07-2024, 04:38   #21
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Re: Twisted double braid

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyOz View Post
Just curious, the twist mostly happens at the winch, so the twist in the tail is the reverse of the twist in front of the winch. So shaking out the tail twist just leaves all the twist in front of the winch?
If the winch is set at a perfect height then twist in the tail is the reverse of the twist caused by the turns around the winch.
Solutions: If the line can be secured by a clutch, then take it off the winch and untwist it before coiling it.
Alternatively it has been suggested that inducing a few reverse twists right next to the winch before coiling the line will also solve the problem.

This does not, however, reverse the twists forward of the winch caused by having a high entry angle. When we are both on deck and I am tailing the headsail furling line I deliberately give it a few reverse twists (or make sure the line passing through my hands already has a few reverse twists) as I slowly release it.
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