Trouble with reefing system

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by siamese

My Catalina 28 came with single line reefing, and it was a pain in the butt. It did not, however, have any blocks sewn into the sail to reduce friction, just cringles. I thought about adding some blocks in cringles to reduce friction, but opted instead to change to two line reefing.

Much better / love it. I don't dread reefing at all, anymore.

On my boat, all I had to do was add a couple cheek blocks to the side of the boom, ditching the in-boom system that it had previously. And, I was very lucky that there was already an extra spin-lock line snubber right next to the snubber for the single line system.

Oh, I imagine there are plenty of single line system users out there living happy and productive lives, but this is what worked wonders for me.

If you don't want to attach blocks to the sail via sewing them on, such as the ones by Antal, you can attach low friction rings to the cringles with spectra loops or lashings. Tends to help a lot.

Also, I'd concur that many techniques that work for reefing on smaller boats just aren't an option on mid-sized & larger ones. For example if the end of the boom is over the dodger, then even if there's a gallows, you can't really reach the boom's end & the reefing cringles. Plus you're up on the cabin top, with few hand & footholds, when the weather is at it's worst.

And on truly big boats, the only way to reach the tack cringles is by shinnying out to the end of the boom. Which I've done, but it's obviously not recommended from a safety perspective.
Ditto on reaching the tack reef cringles, if the boom is more than 3-4' above the cabin top. They'll either be too high to safely reach from the deck, or actually require you to climb a few mast steps in order to reach them. Again, in wild weather.

Plus, 2-line reefing makes it simple for one person alone to reef the main. Which isn't necessarily an option if tying in reef points. And waking folks for each reefing & unreefing evolution truly adds up when it comes to sleep deprivation on passages.

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by Benz

It's a common design flaw that leads to a whole bunch of other flaws.

I've never reefed with gallows, and most of the time the boom is nowhere near the center of the boat when reefing anyway. I simply support the boom with the toppinglift, ease the halyard from the mast, attach the tack pendant to the reefing hook, then pull on the clew reefing line and cleat it on the boom near the gooseneck. Never have used the reef ties, just let the sail battens contain the mess. Many many miles sailed reefing this way and never a problem.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

I've never reefed with gallows, and most of the time the boom is nowhere near the center of the boat when reefing anyway. I simply support the boom with the toppinglift, ease the halyard from the mast, attach the tack pendant to the reefing hook, then pull on the clew reefing line and cleat it on the boom near the gooseneck. Never have used the reef ties, just let the sail battens contain the mess. Many many miles sailed reefing this way and never a problem.

In the right conditions, you can reef with just the topping lift to support the boom--but this can get dangerous when in a heavy sea, especially since the boat will rock more when you depower the main to reef. I've taken a ride from one side to the other and back on the boom more than once on a stormy night. So for me, a proper gallows is a safety issue, as is a reefing system that is above all reliable. Since I find having reef lines going to the clew cringles unacceptable and unreliable, the gallows is an absolute must.
Sure, it's possible to cruise without a gallows (it's possible to cruise with and without a whole bunch of things--you pays your money and you makes your choice), but the safety and convenience one affords makes it a no-brainer to me.

Ben
zartmancruising dot com

[Benz]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

part of this is a function of boat size - some good procedures for smallish boats dont work as well for bigger boats.

I will comment that 2 line reefing (my personal preference in all this) gives you the option to reef while running, which is pretty hard with the gallows approach.

I can gallows-reef while running--the scandalized gaff just goes out and rests against the lowers, and I peak it up after tying in the reef. Dead simple. Surely it's not impossible with a jib-headed main to reef while running?

Ben
zartmancruising dot com

[Cheechako]

Topping lift was always fine for me. I had 3 boats with gallows, I would not reef in any gallows, but I don't lead everything back to the cockpit.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Benz

I can gallows-reef while running--the scandalized gaff just goes out and rests against the lowers, and I peak it up after tying in the reef. Dead simple. Surely it's not impossible with a jib-headed main to reef while running?

Two problems . . . #1 when going downwind, if you bring the boom onto centerline and down onto a gallows in strong wind, you will have a hell of a lot of helm. The boat will want to spin up. And #2 on a bigger boat, in strong wind, it will be a really long process and a hell a lot of effort to winch in onto centerline. Sure it is not "impossible", but it is generally not really desirable (because of the helm issue), and not very practical on a bigger boat (because of the loads).

Generally on a bigger boat with Bermudian main if you want to use a gallows while running, you spin up and pinch a bit and drop it into the gallows luffing.

It is really not worth debating. What you are doing is working for you - good on you. But you should be aware it is not the only practical solution, and it works less well for other designs than you have. Your selling it as the "be all and end all" is a disservice to the community.

On another point that was discussed. If I was thinking I was going to be reefed for a couple days I would tie the reef in with a strop, but otherwise I did not. My dyneema reef lines were quite strong and quite chafe resistant. They never gave me any concern with this procedure.

[Jim Cate]

Benz, the introduction of the gaff rig into the discussion does change things a bit. I can see that the topping lift solution isn't gonna work so well with the gaff flailing away, and a rigid vang would seem a bit odd on such a rig, so OK, for you, a gallows is a good option.

But despite your enthusiasm for such rigs, the vast majority of yachts sailing today are Bermudian rigs, and for them I believe the gallows is not such a clear winner. You are entitled to your opinion, but to label the rest of us as sailing with serious design flaws is a bit OTT... kinda demeaning, in fact. It is pretty hard to deny that a huge number of yachts with slab (jiffy) reefing are successfully sailing with reefed sails every day. Many of those successful sailors might well say that a gaff rig is a serious design flaw in today's world... ya never know!

Jim

[roverhi]

Have many thousand miles on a boat with a gallows but never used it to reef. Trying to get the boom in the gallows in strong winds and big seas was a non starter. Add in a flapping sail would make for more excitement than I'd ever care to experience. Great at anchor though.

Double line reefing run back to the cockpit makes reefing a snap under the cover of the dodger. I have old style block and tackle vangs from boom to deck which allow me to Lock the boom in place, once again from the cockpit.

[Snowpetrel]

I've done a lot of ocean miles on both gaff and Bermudan rigged boats, and in my experience nothing beats running a reefing pendant along the boom to a winch. On a long run you can add a safety strop to the reef cringle, and tie in the reef points, but to be honest I normally don't do either as I tend to reef and unreef often to suit the wind. And this slows thing down considerably.

Any setup that doesn't allow me to put in or shake out a reef in a minute or two is defective in my opinion. This includes my only dismal experience with single line reefing the system was hopeless and very restrictive. Two line is far superior for all the reasons stated.

The Brigantine I worked on we gallows reefed. It was a dangerous and frought operation in a seaway for all hands to put in a reef. I worried about the enormous loads on the gallows and the number of crew near the dangerous end of the boom while we were passing the reef earrings. Even then we still used a reef pendant led along the boom to a 6 part tackle and then 5 or so people to pull the clew down. This system could easily have been redesigned with a stronger reef pendant that was designed to take the full load and no reef earrings, or just much simpler ones used as a safey strop. Saying that in this case having the boom lashed into the gallows did make passimg the reef nettles much safer.

I am curious about your system and proceedure Benz, how do you get the clew down to the boom without a reefing pendant and tackle?

The conventional 'jiffy' non gallows system is described in detail in both Gaff rig by John Leather (pg 55)and Hand Reef and Steer by Tom Cunliffe (pg 126). Two standard reference books for gaff rig. The best improvement you can make to a gaff rig IMHO is to fit one small winch on the boom and do away with the reef tackle. Add a couple of clutches or clam cleats so each reef pendant can be left tight and you now have a 21st century gaffer with a fast and efficent means of reefing the main.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Benz

Hi Jim,

>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
To me the whole reef line setup people use is unbelievably complicated and issue-prone, and completely unnecessary if the simple expedient of a boom gallows is used.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I agree with Jim and uncivilized. Double line reefing has worked for me for the past 18 years.

Your boat, your choice.

Design flaws? Hardly.

But I just have a toy clorox bottle, whadda I know.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

I've done a lot of ocean miles on both gaff and Bermudan rigged boats, and in my experience nothing beats running a reefing pendant along the boom to a winch. On a long run you can add a safety strop to the reef cringle, and tie in the reef points, but to be honest I normally don't do either as I tend to reef and unreef often to suit the wind. And this slows thing down considerably.

Any setup that doesn't allow me to put in or shake out a reef in a minute or two is defective in my opinion. This includes my only dismal experience with single line reefing the system was hopeless and very restrictive. Two line is far superior for all the reasons stated.

The Brigantine I worked on we gallows reefed. It was a dangerous and frought operation in a seaway for all hands to put in a reef. I worried about the enormous loads on the gallows and the number of crew near the dangerous end of the boom while we were passing the reef earrings. Even then we still used a reef pendant led along the boom to a 6 part tackle and then 5 or so people to pull the clew down. This system could easily have been redesigned with a stronger reef pendant that was designed to take the full load and no reef earrings, or just much simpler ones used as a safey strop. Saying that in this case having the boom lashed into the gallows did make passimg the reef nettles much safer.

I am curious about your system and proceedure Benz, how do you get the clew down to the boom without a reefing pendant and tackle?

The conventional 'jiffy' non gallows system is described in detail in both Gaff rig by John Leather (pg 55)and Hand Reef and Steer by Tom Cunliffe (pg 126). Two standard reference books for gaff rig. The best improvement you can make to a gaff rig IMHO is to fit one small winch on the boom and do away with the reef tackle. Add a couple of clutches or clam cleats so each reef pendant can be left tight and you now have a 21st century gaffer with a fast and efficent means of reefing the main.

The way I get the clew down to the boom is to scandalize the peak to de-power the sail, then bring the gaff down so there's plenty of slack in the leech. The leech can then be pulled in by hand until I can pass a line (usually a sail tie) through the cringle. If I can pass it twice, it's pretty easy to cinch it down. I have a short outhaul tackle that I then attach to the clew to adjust foot tension. All this is quite simple from the safety of a boom sheeted tightly into the gallows. But BTW, my gallows is one of the modern ones with three little scoops cut out for the boom to rest in: I don't have to go to centerline with it. Once the peak is scandalized, it takes very little effort to haul in the boom; I don't have a winch for the mainsheet: it's just a four-part tackle.
I'll admit, my sail is small--300 sq ft--but if I had to reef a bigger sail, I think I'd want a gallows even more.

As for those who object to my calling jib-headed mains a design flaw--I stand by that statement. It has certain qualifications, which to discuss in depth would be to hijack this thread even further. I'll be happy to talk about this at any length if anyone cares to start a separate thread about it.

Ben
zartmancruising dot com

[UNCIVILIZED]

Okay, here's a curve ball to add to this. What do folks do in terms of leech cord adjustment when reefing, gaffers included? Since with a pinhead main, even if you have a leech cord that can be adjusted both at the tack & clew/said reef points. It still means either going to the mast to make an adjustment, or fighting with the clew & boom, up close & personal like. And there are definitely times when said cord needs tuning after a reef, non? As a fluttering leech in high winds can destroy a sail.
Or am I forgetting something?

[Snowpetrel]

^^ Thanks for the explanation Benz. It's always nice to hear of alternative ways to do things, and in my case something like this could work if my reef pendant broke, or wasnt rove for some reason.

I'd still worry that it restricts my options particularly if the wind suddenly increases, but I suppose in that case you can just drop the whole main and reef it while its down.

With a Bermudian sail the same concept would work if you lowered the halyard much further than necessary. This has the problem that battens and headboards can foul under the spreaders if running. Not an issue with a gaff, although at times in strong winds it can be a fight to raise the gaff when it's pinned on the shrouds, esp if there are ratlines fouling it and no gaff vang rigged to pull it clear.

If you are punching to windward in strong winds the flogging of the sail would be fierce and possibly dangerous if you are trying to hold the leech by hand. I guess in that case you would need to run off somewhat. To reduce flogging, but running off too far in very strong winds might make for a real workout trying to drag the leech in? I am guessing this techniaue would make backing the staysail and sort of heaving to an ideal position to work from.

Its not going to work as well with a deep reefed main in strong winds, when the leech is so much shorter. You would almost have to drop the gaff completely to depower the leech. I guess you could use the topsail sheet as a vang to pull the gaff back and free up the leech if needed.

It seems to me that one easy way to improve the safety and speed for you without the complication of separate permanently rove reef pendants for each reef would be to copy the method used by the big square riggers for reefing the topsails. They had a reefing tackle permently rigged from the deep reef position. This was used to take the loads while the earring was passed. Prehaps in your case a single pendant from the third reef point (if you have one)could be used to control the leech while you pass the earring through?

Id love to see a video of your method, or some detailed photo's. I am still stickimg with the conventional jiffy reefing as it is very quick, versitile and safe in a variety of conditions, and I dont have a big issue with permanently rove pendants. But its always good to be challenged by other ideas.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Okay, here's a curve ball to add to this. What do folks do in terms of leech cord adjustment when reefing, gaffers included? Since with a pinhead main, even if you have a leech cord that can be adjusted both at the tack & clew/said reef points. It still means either going to the mast to make an adjustment, or fighting with the clew & boom, up close & personal like. And there are definitely times when said cord needs tuning after a reef, non? As a fluttering leech in high winds can destroy a sail.
Or am I forgetting something?

Thats a good point. I have found with modern prestetched or dyneema leech cords its seems to be less of an issue than it used to be, and I think modern sail design has also helped this a lot, so in many cases the leech cord can be roughly set then left alone, as the sail stretches the leech cord tightens itself eliminating flutter. This is one reason why I like a large and strong dyneema leech cord on any roller furling sail. It also helps hold the whole thing together if the sail shreds itself.

However we damaged the leech of a fairly new experimental main on a 68 footer a few years ago due to leech flutter. The damned leech cord kept slipping through the leech cleat. In the end we lashed it in place with a separate line which solved the issue, but by that time the leech had a small vertical tear over the hinge line about 75mm inside the leech. The sail was made from recycled PET plastic and this may have increased the stretch and reduced the fatigue resistance of the cloth. Anyway it was quickly patched and made it the whole way across the pacific.

This is one example of the type of issue where I think those who maintain that they can sail a big boat without leaving the cockpit ever in strong winds are dangerously misguided. In the above case I had to climb onto the end of the boom a few times with about 40 knots of wind on the nose. Not too bad because we had a high strong solid dodger that got me up close enough to the boom to do what I needed to. But it wouldn't have been much fun for an old retired couple on their fancy big oyster yacht with electric everything.

So even if you have the leech line leading over the headboard and down the luff you can still have issues with the clew end of it slipping depending on how the sail is made. These days I normally tie it off on the third reef and adjust the top via the luff and the bottom via the leech end. The bottom seldom is an issue.

On smaller boats you can reasonably easily reach the leech cord cleat from the lee sidedeck or cockpit coaming. The boom should be preventered and a harness worn that is long enough to enable you to reach the cleat, but short enough that you can't be swept overboard to leeward.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

^^ Thanks for the explanation Benz. It's always nice to hear of alternative ways to do things, and in my case something like this could work if my reef pendant broke, or wasnt rove for some reason.

I'd still worry that it restricts my options particularly if the wind suddenly increases, but I suppose in that case you can just drop the whole main and reef it while its down.

With a Bermudian sail the same concept would work if you lowered the halyard much further than necessary. This has the problem that battens and headboards can foul under the spreaders if running. Not an issue with a gaff, although at times in strong winds it can be a fight to raise the gaff when it's pinned on the shrouds, esp if there are ratlines fouling it and no gaff vang rigged to pull it clear.

If you are punching to windward in strong winds the flogging of the sail would be fierce and possibly dangerous if you are trying to hold the leech by hand. I guess in that case you would need to run off somewhat. To reduce flogging, but running off too far in very strong winds might make for a real workout trying to drag the leech in? I am guessing this techniaue would make backing the staysail and sort of heaving to an ideal position to work from.

Its not going to work as well with a deep reefed main in strong winds, when the leech is so much shorter. You would almost have to drop the gaff completely to depower the leech. I guess you could use the topsail sheet as a vang to pull the gaff back and free up the leech if needed.

It seems to me that one easy way to improve the safety and speed for you without the complication of separate permanently rove reef pendants for each reef would be to copy the method used by the big square riggers for reefing the topsails. They had a reefing tackle permently rigged from the deep reef position. This was used to take the loads while the earring was passed. Prehaps in your case a single pendant from the third reef point (if you have one)could be used to control the leech while you pass the earring through?

Id love to see a video of your method, or some detailed photo's. I am still stickimg with the conventional jiffy reefing as it is very quick, versitile and safe in a variety of conditions, and I dont have a big issue with permanently rove pendants. But its always good to be challenged by other ideas.

When going to weather in heavy winds, I've never reefed so late that I couldn't pull the leech in. Once or twice, when astonished by a sudden katabatic in Newfoundland, I just doused the sail altogether. If it's blowing (or gonna blow) hard enough to make reefing a real struggle, I deploy the storm try'sl. My outhaul tackle is long enough to gain control of the clew in a pinch, but I still have to bring them together: by the time I do, it's just as easy to pass a sail tie through the cringle for an earing. It's somewhat acrobatic, and as my body continues to age I might have to add some complication, but I've resisted having the festoon of lines going up and down the leech because they're prone to tangle, they add weight and expense and windage, and my maxim is to have maximum simplicity. We'll see how long I'll last. I will, say, however, that no matter how old I get, I'll still need the security and convenience of a gallows.
Part of the reason people add winches, then electric winches, is because all these design flaws add friction which though perhaps negligible individually, add up to a lot of resistance when hoisting. Same with a mainsheet that does five or six turns going to the gooseneck, the partners, and along a few deck organizers to return to the cockpit.

Ben
zartmancruising dot com