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Old 20-01-2023, 15:40   #1
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The sail control table!

I wasn’t able to find anybody in Saint Pete to do fiberglass work, so I’m going to have to do this one.

I'll just be extra careful. Fumes are much easier to manage at anchor thanks to the constant wind direction.

I'll use my full face supplied air respirator to breathe air from the bow until the Styrene stink is gone. Luckily that's very quickly. Just a few hours.

So here is the core of the sail control table ready to start laminating.

Please don't mind the crud all over it. That's cockroach crap from a shipping container my corecell was in. Hey, isn't Florida great?!??!

Also those are temporary doors behind it. Not my permanent doors.

Anyway, I'm looking at 2 options here.

1). A pair of electric winches as pictured to work with a kabillion rope clutches lined up across the top or...

2). One monster reversible electric winch to be able to pull from either side of the winch equally and use with the kabillion rope clutches.


I feel like I prefer a single central winch since the line stoppers are everything here. There are no cleats. I won't be putting any of these control lines on winches and leaving them there.

I'm only using the winch to pull so I can lock lines off in the rope clutches.

What does everyone think about the central winch idea?

Do they make such a beast? I honestly just need an electric capstan to pull the lines. I don't even see why a normal sailing winch would be necessary.


Separately, a different thing I'll run by everyone is my lamination schedule.


3 layers of 1708 on the flat surfaces of the table. Top and bottom. Overkill or sounds good? Using vinylester. Maybe polyester.

Using triax on bulkheads that go below the table surface attaching it to the bridge deck. Aligning uni properly to take the loads

Biax tape and fillet/cove joints to connect it to the bridge deck.

The part farthest away in the pic butts up against the main structural bullhead and will be tabbed to that.

Using marine ply where the rope clutches and winch (es?) will go for compression resistance as this is installed indoors in the salon.


PS:. Getting new rope clutches since this has to look nice as a centerpiece of the boat.
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Old 20-01-2023, 16:07   #2
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Re: The sail control table!

I expect having more than 1 winch would make things easier, as you wouldn't need to swap things around as frequently. In particular, when sailing with jib + main, you'd have the ability to have both sheets already led to winches, so you'd just have to swap the jib sheets to tack. That should make trimming the sails easier, I'd think.

I'd also consider making the whole top out of plywood unless there's a good reason not to. That'll give more flexibility for any future equipment and layout changes without needing to worry about which areas are beefed up for compression loading and which aren't.
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Old 20-01-2023, 16:13   #3
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Re: The sail control table!

I tried multiple sheet stops to a winch in the past. Not for primaries though. It's a mess, I hate sheet stoppers but all the lines and confusing mess is not fun either.
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Old 20-01-2023, 16:30   #4
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Re: The sail control table!

You say you will use the winch "only for pulling."

What will you do when you want to ease a sheet 6 inches? You can't just pop the clutch, you need the winch friction to control it. On really heavily loaded lines, you sometimes need to take some of the load to release the clutch at all.

Having one winch for halyards and such with lines all locked in clutches is a fine idea and works well. Having only one to handle everything seems a bad idea, especially on a performance cat where sometimes you need to release sheet tension NOW!

Maybe I am misunderstanding your intentions here. But boats where sail trimming is easy tend to have their sails trimmed a lot and sail easier and faster. If every single tiny touch of sail trim means swapping a line on and off a winch, you simply will not trim as much as you should.
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Old 20-01-2023, 16:35   #5
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Re: The sail control table!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie View Post
You say you will use the winch "only for pulling."

What will you do when you want to ease a sheet 6 inches? You can't just pop the clutch, you need the winch friction to control it. On really heavily loaded lines, you sometimes need to take some of the load to release the clutch at all.

Having one winch for halyards and such with lines all locked in clutches is a fine idea and works well. Having only one to handle everything seems a bad idea, especially on a performance cat where sometimes you need to release sheet tension NOW!

Maybe I am misunderstanding your intentions here. But boats where sail trimming is easy tend to have their sails trimmed a lot and sail easier and faster. If every single tiny touch of sail trim means swapping a line on and off a winch, you simply will not trim as much as you should.


that’s why I posted it.

looking for feedback.

I didn’t think it was any big deal to release the rope clutch and let line start sliding out. I didn’t know that you had to tension it in order to release it. That wasn’t the case on my old boats that had them. But then again my old boats were smaller.

can anyone confirm that there is no such thing as a rope clutch that allows the rope to slide out when you release it?

Also I think there are two different things. A rope clutch and a jammer. I think they behave differently right?
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Old 20-01-2023, 16:37   #6
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Re: The sail control table!

Once you release the rope clutch, it's not putting friction on the line. If the line is lightly loaded, you'll be able to control it by hand. If not, you'd need to use a winch or something to give you enough friction to let it out in a slow, controlled manner. Of course, if you just need to dump a given line, open the clutch and let it fly. A good rope clutch should open just fine under tension.

As far as sheet loads, particularly for the jib, think back to when you had the Gulfstar. I expect it took a bit of care to let lines out safely on that boat with any decent wind. I'd expect similar on the cat.


EDIT: Looks like some of the Spinlock clutches (such as the XTR) may allow a controlled release rather than just a total dump of the line. Hard to tell for sure with how they've worded it.
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Old 20-01-2023, 16:58   #7
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Re: The sail control table!

Quote:
Originally Posted by rslifkin View Post
Once you release the rope clutch, it's not putting friction on the line. If the line is lightly loaded, you'll be able to control it by hand. If not, you'd need to use a winch or something to give you enough friction to let it out in a slow, controlled manner. Of course, if you just need to dump a given line, open the clutch and let it fly. A good rope clutch should open just fine under tension.

As far as sheet loads, particularly for the jib, think back to when you had the Gulfstar. I expect it took a bit of care to let lines out safely on that boat with any decent wind. I'd expect similar on the cat.


EDIT: Looks like some of the Spinlock clutches (such as the XTR) may allow a controlled release rather than just a total dump of the line. Hard to tell for sure with how they've worded it.
it is a little hard to tell. I always assumed they worked like the old ones I had on my other boats. I just release it a little bit and it goes slowly. I release it more and it goes faster.

The Gulfstar didnít have anything like that. the sheets just went to winches. Electric winches.

From my understanding, things like halyards use a jammer because they are under super tension and donít need to be changed around much. Those you need to put tension on the line to release. But a rope clutch, you should be able to let it out slowly or faster depending on how much you open it up. That was always my experience with them.
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Old 20-01-2023, 17:07   #8
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Re: The sail control table!

With the better rope clutches that very well may be the case. I've just never seen them used that way (and I'm not sure I've ever tried it myself). Everyone I know just uses them as an on/off switch.

Even if you don't need a winch to release a line, I'd still want 2 of them on the table to reduce having to take lines on and off the winch as frequently. In the spinnaker case, you could run each spinnaker guy to a winch, so jibing would be nice and easy with no line swapping, just release one a bit and pull the other in.
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Old 20-01-2023, 17:12   #9
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Re: The sail control table!

Quote:
Originally Posted by rslifkin View Post
With the better rope clutches that very well may be the case. I've just never seen them used that way (and I'm not sure I've ever tried it myself). Everyone I know just uses them as an on/off switch.

Even if you don't need a winch to release a line, I'd still want 2 of them on the table to reduce having to take lines on and off the winch as frequently. In the spinnaker case, you could run each spinnaker guy to a winch, so jibing would be nice and easy with no line swapping, just release one a bit and pull the other in.
yeah. That does sound pretty nice for the spinnaker doesnít it?
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Old 20-01-2023, 17:57   #10
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The sail control table!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
it is a little hard to tell. I always assumed they worked like the old ones I had on my other boats. I just release it a little bit and it goes slowly. I release it more and it goes faster.



The Gulfstar didnít have anything like that. the sheets just went to winches. Electric winches.



From my understanding, things like halyards use a jammer because they are under super tension and donít need to be changed around much. Those you need to put tension on the line to release. But a rope clutch, you should be able to let it out slowly or faster depending on how much you open it up. That was always my experience with them.

Your previous boats have massively lower loads then what youíve got now. Thatís just the way it is.

AFAIK there are no clutches that provide gradually lowering friction when they are opened: they are all closed or all open. And with the kinds of halyard and sheet loads that you have on your cat youíll need to tension the line equally on both sides of the clutch before you can open it - use a winch for that.

You can use textile clutches - they donít need to be pre-tensioned to release. But they require a lot more deck space and they also donít allow controlled release of high loads.

As others have said, a single winch could work for all your halyards, but two will be MUCH easier to use. Think about times when youíll need to ease a halyard and pull on a reefing line.

For sheets and other control lines you will need at least one winch for each side of the boat. Two on each side makes things easier, as there is less swapping. If everything is central, perhaps 3 winches for all your non-mast/boom lines.

Our cat is old school, designed in the 90s and deck planned in the 00s, so your layout can optimise winches.

All mast lines are at the mast and we have two winches there, a 53 2-speed and 48 2-speed.
- main halyard
- topping lift
- gennaker halyard
- spinnaker halyard
- staysail halyard
- outhaul
- reef lines 1, 2, and 3

All other control lines are led to one or the other side of the cockpit. We have 4x53 2-speed winches, 2 on each side.

Port side:
- port running backstay pullback line (Spinlock PXR cam cleat)
- jib furling line (Lever clutch)
- port daggerboard lift/drop line (Lever clutch)
- jib traveller (Lever clutch)
- jib sheet (Lever clutch)
- port running backstay (Lever clutch)
- port dinghy lift/lower line (Lever clutch)
- port mainsheet (Lever clutch)
- port main traveller (Lever clutch)
- port gennaker sheet
- port guy
- port spinnaker sheet
- port main preventer
- port jib outboard sheet

Starboard side:
- starboard running backstay pullback line (Spinlock PXR cam cleat)
- staysail/storm jib furler line (Spinlock PXR cam cleat)
- starboard daggerboard lift/drop line (Lever clutch)
- starboard running backstay (Lever clutch)
- starboard dinghy lift/lower line (Lever clutch)
- starboard mainsheet (Lever clutch)
- starboard main traveller (Lever clutch)
- starboard gennaker sheet
- starboard guy
- starboard spinnaker sheet
- starboard main preventer
- starboard jib outboard sheet

We would like one of our halyard winches to be electric and one on either side of the cockpit. A 36V right angle drill is on our wish list - a much more flexible and useful tool than a bunch of heavy and expensive electric winches. And we can use our windlass for any of our mast lines.
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Old 20-01-2023, 18:31   #11
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Re: The sail control table!

Some winch manufacturer's strongly recommend that the load to the winch be perpendicular to the final drive gear. If your loads are coming from different directions, this can cause sever damage to the winch and possible injury to the operator. Check the installation instructions of the winch you intend to use before purchasing them.
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Old 20-01-2023, 19:00   #12
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Re: The sail control table!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
I wasnít able to find anybody in Saint Pete to do fiberglass work, so Iím going to have to do this one.

I'll just be extra careful. Fumes are much easier to manage at anchor thanks to the constant wind direction.

I'll use my full face supplied air respirator to breathe air from the bow until the Styrene stink is gone. Luckily that's very quickly. Just a few hours.

So here is the core of the sail control table ready to start laminating.

Please don't mind the crud all over it. That's cockroach crap from a shipping container my corecell was in. Hey, isn't Florida great?!??!

Also those are temporary doors behind it. Not my permanent doors.

Anyway, I'm looking at 2 options here.

1). A pair of electric winches as pictured to work with a kabillion rope clutches lined up across the top or...

2). One monster reversible electric winch to be able to pull from either side of the winch equally and use with the kabillion rope clutches.


I feel like I prefer a single central winch since the line stoppers are everything here. There are no cleats. I won't be putting any of these control lines on winches and leaving them there.

I'm only using the winch to pull so I can lock lines off in the rope clutches.

What does everyone think about the central winch idea?

Do they make such a beast? I honestly just need an electric capstan to pull the lines. I don't even see why a normal sailing winch would be necessary.


Separately, a different thing I'll run by everyone is my lamination schedule.


3 layers of 1708 on the flat surfaces of the table. Top and bottom. Overkill or sounds good? Using vinylester. Maybe polyester.

Using triax on bulkheads that go below the table surface attaching it to the bridge deck. Aligning uni properly to take the loads

Biax tape and fillet/cove joints to connect it to the bridge deck.

The part farthest away in the pic butts up against the main structural bullhead and will be tabbed to that.

Using marine ply where the rope clutches and winch (es?) will go for compression resistance as this is installed indoors in the salon.


PS:. Getting new rope clutches since this has to look nice as a centerpiece of the boat.
Did you call John Trent in St Pete?
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Old 20-01-2023, 19:05   #13
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Re: The sail control table!

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Originally Posted by geoleo View Post
Did you call John Trent in St Pete?
Yes. Nice guy. Chatted with him for a while after he declined the job. Not interested in the work.
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Old 20-01-2023, 19:09   #14
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Re: The sail control table!

Quote:
Originally Posted by replusted View Post
Some winch manufacturer's strongly recommend that the load to the winch be perpendicular to the final drive gear. If your loads are coming from different directions, this can cause sever damage to the winch and possible injury to the operator. Check the installation instructions of the winch you intend to use before purchasing them.
Harken:



are there some brands that donít matter as much?

and what about the fact that maybe you could line up the sheets which are high load, but then do something like pull your dagger board down using the same winch at a funny angle.
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Old 20-01-2023, 19:14   #15
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Re: The sail control table!

Why is this stuff so hard? And why can’t you just hire somebody to do this?

This is the kind of stuff that makes me want to quit.

I thought I had this all done. Here it is halfway through the winter I don’t have even a hope of a rig yet.

Very frustrating.

I was kind of hoping I could just hand this all off to the riggers and have them do it all. Like they would have the knowledge to figure all that stuff out and do it.

i’ve never designed rigging before. And I knew I wouldn’t know how to do this.

in the past, I would just buy a boat and sail it. However it was rigged, I'd just get used to it.

Blank canvases suck to be honest
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