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Old 25-01-2023, 01:41   #106
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Re: The sail control table!

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Pretty sure Iím hiring this out now. This is what Iíve been saving for. Good rigging. So I am in contact with someone absolutely exceptional that I canít name just yet. His work is in some of the earlier posts in this thread. Thatís how exceptional he is.

A good decision, Chotu!
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Old 25-01-2023, 02:36   #107
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Re: The sail control table!

I am sure you will, but please share the result and any of the decisions you had to make along the way.
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Old 25-01-2023, 05:33   #108
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Re: The sail control table!

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I am sure you will, but please share the result and any of the decisions you had to make along the way.
Yes, no problem. I will be sure to tell the story along the way and show the progress and especially the result.
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Old 25-01-2023, 07:21   #109
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Re: The sail control table!

Post some pics of the whole boat! We're all interested in your progress, and it will improve the quality of the responses!


---


For me, lots of winches are not just a racer thing. They make life easier. I dislike long rows of jammers. I like to spread things out. But that is a choice.


A warning, based on experience. I love mast-mounted winches for their convenience hoisting and reefing, and low friction compared to leading the rope to a winch somewhere else. But they can snag jib sheets when tacking. Just make sure they are either guarded by a stay or the sheets are too short to reach them (self-tacking jibs). Many easy solutions. For me, adding a pair of Dyneema jackstays solved the problem and gave me something else to hold onto/clip on to in rough weather.
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Old 26-01-2023, 09:09   #110
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Re: The sail control table!

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Exiting developments. I am hiring the person who did these on the Gunboats to do my rigging. So itíll be basically the same.

VERY excited to be working with a guy with that level of experience. Nice guy too.

We start next week!


Jim Cate was a tough b&st:rd with his post.

But Iíll be damned if he wasnít right. Lol

(Thatís within the rules, right? Iím complimenting Jim)


Iím off to the Carolinas (slowly)
Jim is one of the posters I've found to be consistently correct when he gives advice. If he occasionally comes across as a "tough b&st:rd" once in a while, consider it "tough love". I've always found him to be patient and well-mannered.
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Old 27-01-2023, 09:54   #111
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Re: The sail control table!

It seems you've got a good bit sailing experience and managed to get very far along building your custom cat. It is beyond me why you've abandoned certain fundamental aspects of sail control. Sail control should be pretty high on your list of get it right things. It shouldn't be that you toss away the familiar you've seen and used on just about every other sailboat without careful consideration. There are marine architects, designers and rigging specialists for a reason. More generally its ok to share a winch for multiple tasks but only if the tasks are not needed at the same time and only if the lead angles are within a prescribed range. You can't lead a highly loaded line to a clutch without risking chafe and excessive side loads. You may have a bit more freedom with a winch. With properly sized and backed winch, assuming you are in range to avoid an overide, it probably won't be the load on the winch that causes failure but ahead of that redirecting highly loaded lines from great angles result in excessive friction, function and durability problems. In the picture it looks like you have led at least one line into clutch from 90 degrees. Just not good, as they say, "who does that?" Whether your intent is to save weight or reduce cost you will regret not staying close to the way you've seen it done on boats built by professionals.
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Old 27-01-2023, 10:14   #112
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Re: The sail control table!

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Originally Posted by OneBoatman View Post
It seems you've got a good bit sailing experience and managed to get very far along building your custom cat. It is beyond me why you've abandoned certain fundamental aspects of sail control. Sail control should be pretty high on your list of get it right things. It shouldn't be that you toss away the familiar you've seen and used on just about every other sailboat without careful consideration. There are marine architects, designers and rigging specialists for a reason. More generally its ok to share a winch for multiple tasks but only if the tasks are not needed at the same time and only if the lead angles are within a prescribed range. You can't lead a highly loaded line to a clutch without risking chafe and excessive side loads. You may have a bit more freedom with a winch. With properly sized and backed winch, assuming you are in range to avoid an overide, it probably won't be the load on the winch that causes failure but ahead of that redirecting highly loaded lines from great angles result in excessive friction, function and durability problems. In the picture it looks like you have led at least one line into clutch from 90 degrees. Just not good, as they say, "who does that?" Whether your intent is to save weight or reduce cost you will regret not staying close to the way you've seen it done on boats built by professionals.
You forgot to read the thread. At least check the previous page or read a couple pages in when posting.
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Old 30-01-2023, 15:56   #113
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Re: The sail control table!

The initial meeting is over and it would appear the title of this thread is wrong.

I’m just not bougie enough.

Sail control table? No!!!

It’s called a plynth.

I allllllllllmost had an extra one from one of the old gunboat 55s they didn’t make. He called to try to secure me one today. Unfortunately, they are prohibited from selling them. So, it has to be made from scratch.

The furler will likely need replacing so I will likely have a “too short for me, but still plenty long” Facnor furler for sale shortly. It’s actually with me on the boat and I can drop it anywhere between st Pete to the old Gunboat factory area in NC where I’m headed.

Guys, I just can’t believe the quality of the work I’m about to have done. Eclipses anything available in Florida by a long shot. If I had a lot more cash to throw at this part of the process, could have a Gunboat, essentially. Also, he already solved about half a dozen issues on first glance.

I’m just following all his recommendations. All of them. He’s got so much experience and knowledge it’s hard keeping up. He’s planning everything out down to the last detail and did a very impressive cataloging of my rig and boat, picking up every possible detail instantly.

Bye bye Florida boat finishing resources. I sure won’t miss you. It’s been rough trying to get things done down here. And I don’t mean the riggers I went to in st Pete. They are great people in general. Very nice. Really customer focused and can replace and upgrade rigging perfectly. Throwing a custom boat and a blank canvas at them just wasn’t in their skill set. But I’d highly recommend them for normal rigging projects.

Looks like my posts might be boring for a while. Things are starting to go too well!

Also looks like the “thanks for helping in the threads “ sail will be very convenient for Rslifkin. Probably Long Island Sound or Narragansett Bay. More of a commute for McHughV
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Old 31-01-2023, 08:33   #114
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Re: The sail control table!

OK, after one day of work. One single day. Here is the list already.

I can’t even convey how excited I am about this. Finally something is going right in this project. Sorry for the lack of entertainment. Lol

1) Mast Rigging
a) Take measurements into CAD to look at spreader configurations and stay and shroud adjustment measurements, Mast Rake, Move tangs and spreader sockets if needed
b) Fixed Rigging - New Forestay. Lashing extensions for Shrouds and Baby Stay, Order and Replace Sheaves. Move cleats and other lower end hardware so they can be reached. Harken Furler Order and Installation
c) Running Rigging - Create Halyard, sheet and control line Inventory for line order specifications. Order cordage. Prepare Cordage for installations in the mast for commissioning prep. Headsail Sheet Sheave
d) Repair the Gooseneck Fitting
e) Stack Pack and Lazy Jacks for Mainsail Handling.. topping lift will be needed
f) New Mast electrical wiring and fittings. AM/FM, VHF, Windex, Wind Transducer, Mast Head Light, Steam/Deck Light, Spreader Lights, Radar antenna if needed
g) Install Mast Step, crane will be needed for putting rig up
h) Specify and order Chainplate Fittings

2) Headsail Handling
a) Curved Track Specification, Order, Installation
b) Mast Sheet Block and internal sheet installation to run to the Winch Plinth
c) Furling Line to run to Winch Plinth
d) Asym Tack Line to run to Winch Plinth
e) Install the headsail

3) Mainsail Handling
a) Mast Track Bearing Repairs if possible. Mating fittings installed checked and prepped on the Mainsail
b) Remove Boom Outhull Track and Make a Spectra Clew Strap
c) Install Outhaul Line and Boom Internal Purchase
d) Install Reef Lines to run to the Winch Plinth - Tack and Leech Lines for 2 reef points. Check sail that reef point line up properly to mast spreader locations
e) Install lazy jacks and stack pack to hold and protect mainsail
f) Install a Mainsail Halyard Lock device.
g) Install Mainsail Sheeting System - style and specs need to be determined. Safest system would be sheeted to transom bulkhead and re arrange the davits location so the roof is not compromised

4) Winch Plinth Control Table
a) Make a Rigging Design Layout on CAD . Use Stiletto X mold and adapt to correct height
b) Specify what will be needed for line redirection under the mast
c) Note some accomodation for water drainage and wet lines
d) Make Plinth and Install to the floor and wall surfaces with tabbing and proset glue. Fair the tabbing in to disappear.
e) Install Winches and hardware. Winches may need servicing.
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Old 31-01-2023, 12:51   #115
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Re: The sail control table!

This is great, so happy for you.

Halyard locks are great, but do require downhauls to provide for luff tension. I didnít see mention of a cunningham for the fully hoisted main, so donít forget to add that if itís not already planned for. It will need a winch.

2 reefs are not enough if you ever plan to go offshore. Your third reef should be less than 50% luff height and less than 30% area.
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Old 31-01-2023, 17:43   #116
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Re: The sail control table!

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Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
This is great, so happy for you.

Halyard locks are great, but do require downhauls to provide for luff tension. I didn’t see mention of a cunningham for the fully hoisted main, so don’t forget to add that if it’s not already planned for. It will need a winch.

2 reefs are not enough if you ever plan to go offshore. Your third reef should be less than 50% luff height and less than 30% area.
Thank you! Your posts are so greatly appreciated I have learned so much from them.

We haven’t seen this mainsail open yet. It’s in pretty good shape. Very crispy. No sun damage. So we will have to see what exists I guess. And go from there. Currently the main sail is folded up and tied up aboard the boat. It and the blade jib should be just fine. But if they are not, he is also a representative for Quantum sails. I could go on and on about this guy’s history. He spent the early part of his career working in sail lofts. Just who I needed to get hooked up with to help me through this stuff.

I am assuming there is a third reef. I think we saw a place for the third reef on the boom.. And I agree with you about needing one. Very much so. I need to sail this boat conservatively and slowly build my skills up. I am not used to a boat like this yet. I have a lot to learn. The only other catamaran I have sailed aside from Hobie cats was one that was basically the same as a monohull. A Catalac. A dog. That boat inspired me to build this one. Ha ha

I think the third reef is equally important in the bay. Or in the sound. There are times when you need it. So I couldn’t agree more. I will not be overpowering this boat for a long time.

It will be very easy to dump this boat and end up upside down.

The absolute maximum displacement if you were to sink this thing way down with weight is 18,000 pounds. That’s loaded like crazy way down past the water line. It was nowhere near that. I was about 12,000 pounds at lunch. That doesn’t include the couch and coffee table in here. Or my bicycle. But just about everything else was in here at launch. All of the tools and everything.
And my stick is 64 feet. Not off of the water but off of the deck. With a 54ft symmetrical spinnaker.

There is a lot of room for error.

Kind of like back in the old days when I used to ride fast motorcycles. You can’t always open that throttle up. A lot of times you are just barely touching it. And I’m going to sail like that for quite a while until I get to know this boat a lot better. I don’t intend on flipping it over. Ha ha.
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Old 01-02-2023, 11:52   #117
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Re: The sail control table!

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Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
This is great, so happy for you.

Halyard locks are great, but do require downhauls to provide for luff tension. I didnít see mention of a cunningham for the fully hoisted main, so donít forget to add that if itís not already planned for. It will need a winch.

2 reefs are not enough if you ever plan to go offshore. Your third reef should be less than 50% luff height and less than 30% area.

An interesting response. I am basically a conduit here. I do not know enough to even participate at this point. Iím learning though. Hereís the response to this post.

ď The tradeoffs for the reef point rigging is that lines get tangled easily while raising and lowering the sail. Worse case they fall overboard and get caught in your prop, or the boom gibes and a lose reef line rips off your davit or other appendages or people on deck. The mast engineering has to support the head location of each reef. You have support at the headstay hounds... reef 1 should line up to the headstay. You have a baby stay and its important to have so that you have mast support at the second reef point. The mainsail will snap the mast if it inverts it because it isnt supported where the head of the sail ends up during reefed sailing. So the 3rd reef location is a problem people dont think about until they see their rig bending wildly because it has no support at the mainsail head location.... its better to just put a storm sail or tiny little bit of jib out inj 3rd reef conditions than it is to break your mast. That being said, its a big mast with a wide section.... so maybe it can do it... but this is the reasoning about reef point positioning. Its important to rig integrity.Ē
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Old 01-02-2023, 13:40   #118
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Re: The sail control table!

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Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
An interesting response. I am basically a conduit here. I do not know enough to even participate at this point. Iím learning though. Hereís the response to this post.



ď The tradeoffs for the reef point rigging is that lines get tangled easily while raising and lowering the sail. Worse case they fall overboard and get caught in your prop, or the boom gibes and a lose reef line rips off your davit or other appendages or people on deck. The mast engineering has to support the head location of each reef. You have support at the headstay hounds... reef 1 should line up to the headstay. You have a baby stay and its important to have so that you have mast support at the second reef point. The mainsail will snap the mast if it inverts it because it isnt supported where the head of the sail ends up during reefed sailing. So the 3rd reef location is a problem people dont think about until they see their rig bending wildly because it has no support at the mainsail head location.... its better to just put a storm sail or tiny little bit of jib out inj 3rd reef conditions than it is to break your mast. That being said, its a big mast with a wide section.... so maybe it can do it... but this is the reasoning about reef point positioning. Its important to rig integrity.Ē

Understood about being a conduit. Two and half points from the above:

1) We have three reefs with the third reef line being 30m long. Tangling on hoisting is not a thing, but we are also careful to flake the reef lines when storing the main). When lowering the sail the three reef lines usually fall off the boom and form long loops below the back of the boom. However, the drooping loops usually arenít so long that they touch the water. But in our case they float as they are bare Dyneema - no risk of getting caught in our props (though our props are on shafts under the hulls - if you have outboards under/behind your bridgedeck they will be more at risk from drooping reef line loops. A light net between the hulls below the end of the boom would work to catch errant reef lines and could be removed when you want to use your dinghy.

1.5) Regarding gybing with loose reef lines - DONíT! Keep the lazy reef lines tight whenever the main is hoisted - a small cam cleat at the front of the boom is perfect for that. Whenever you change the height of the mainsail readjust the remaining reef lines. This is just basic house keeping. And of course, youíve got a cat - uncontrolled gybes are not ever a thing. Also, before a gybe lock the traveller (actually, we always keep our traveller locked between adjustments) and shorten the mainsheet so that the boom cannot swing wildly when it gybes.

2) Good points regarding reefed head heights. Thatís why many catamaran masts that arenít carbon have tripod spreader sections with diamond stays that rigidly hold the mast In whatever prebend itís designed for. In our case the third reef head is between spreaders (first reef at hounds and second reef very close to the upper spreaders) but weíve never seen any risk of inversion - our diamonds are very tight. In the absence of tripod spreaders then a baby stay between your spreaders would perform the same function.
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