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Old 22-01-2023, 09:07   #76
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Re: The sail control table!

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Originally Posted by Flobble View Post
Absolutely you do; 50ft cat, big loads, 90 degree turns -> high friction, high wear, high maintenance.


Apart from the fact that they're not frictionless. Low(ish) friction, but very definitely not frictionless.

Another note: before placing an order for my upcoming boat, I visited all the yards on the shortlist to get a sense of how they really design and think about how their boats are used in practice.

One had build a full-scale mock-up of the cockpit in timber to test out all the manoeuvring scenarios with real people and real ropes. A couple of things stood out - firstly they asked "how would you tack/hoist/gybe/reef?" and watched what we did. Secondly, there was clear evidence of many iterations of the layout - winches & clutches having been moved, swapped. Heights and distances had been adjusted.

You don't have that luxury, but one idea might be to design your table such that you can easily make changes in the future. Reality will likely be different from what you expect.
Well, I canít get away from the 90į turns in some of the ones going through the deck.

. But the ones in the structural bulkhead arenít 90į. They are much less. That would be OK then wouldnít it?

Significantly easier to do than sheaves everywhere. And it would line up better with things on the sail control table.

And yeah. Iím agreeing with you and Rslifkin on that. Noncompressible core is definitely the way to go on this table. Because things will have to get moved. Iím sure of it.
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Old 22-01-2023, 09:17   #77
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Re: The sail control table!

IMO, winch and helm layout drive the cockpit design, so it feels like we are coming at this backwards. This is said to be a performance cat, so I'm assuming there is plentiful sail and it will be pressed.



If the systems are not designed more like a race boat, with dedicated winches for sheets and less over-jammer, then either the boat won't to its potential or we will read about it upside down somewhere. Like a fast car with Rube Goldberg brakes.

Notice how the distributed tail bag reduce tangle potential.
How do you...
* Deal with an override or snarl entering or leaving a jammer with only one winch?
* What if the winch breaks?
* How do have headsail and mainsail and traveler lines all ready to run in gusty conditions?
* How do you reef, adjusting and controlling the sheet, halyard, and reef lines at the same time?
* And all those tails tangled in one place? And single handing, with no one to sort them out?



And on and on. Sounds like a nightmare to me. My F-24 has 4 winches. My PDQ 34 has 6 winches. Both of these are smaller and do not need traveler winches or barberhauler winches, for a few examples. I don't see how you can work a performance boat effectively like this.


I think 4 winches is the minimum standard on larger performance multihulls, for good reasons. You need to be able to reach all of these within seconds from the helm, and preferably from the main cabin. I suggest starting over from that perspective.



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Old 22-01-2023, 09:29   #78
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Re: The sail control table!

Just a word of warning: TWO rings to make a 90 degree turn will add a very large amount of friction to the system above one quality turning block. If you are using high tech line, they will also be VERY tough on the core especially for halyards where the same point on the line will bear on the rings--under high load--all the time.

Here is a quick set of data on "frictionless rings" you maybe should look at: https://l-36.com/low_friction_rings.php In these measurements, a block had friction so low it could not be measured, and one 90 degree turn through a ring added 40% (!!!!) to the load. (20lb up to 28lbs)

It can be managed, but a bigger winch and more frequent line replacements might be needed.

I also think you are seriously discounting the annoyances from having saltwater wet lines brought into your living cabin. For me this would be an absolute red line, but you've already burned that bridge so you'll learn to live with it.
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Old 22-01-2023, 09:38   #79
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Re: The sail control table!

Here is a gunboat 55. Why are they not having all the trouble we are coming up with here in this thread?

2 winches control the whole boat.

Can anyone answer that?










Looking at these pictures, maybe I don’t need rope clutches. Maybe I need cam cleats for the ones that are adjusted frequently or need to be dumped in a hurry.

It looks like the rope clutches are more for the halyards or whatever in this case I think.
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Old 22-01-2023, 10:17   #80
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Re: The sail control table!

And it looks like there is some off the shelf hardware to solve the problem with being out of alignment with the rope clutches or cam cleats. That array of alignment sheaves looks pretty handy.
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Old 22-01-2023, 10:17   #81
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Re: The sail control table!

Cam cleats might be a good idea for the low load lines. You'll sometimes be able to just pull those in by hand and not bother with the winch. In that situation a cam cleat will be easier.

If you account for both top and bottom routing of lines you can always start with a pair of winches just on top or in the front and have the option to add another winch or 2 later if you decide it's worthwhile.
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Old 22-01-2023, 10:26   #82
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Re: The sail control table!

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Originally Posted by rslifkin View Post
Cam cleats might be a good idea for the low load lines. You'll sometimes be able to just pull those in by hand and not bother with the winch. In that situation a cam cleat will be easier.

If you account for both top and bottom routing of lines you can always start with a pair of winches just on top or in the front and have the option to add another winch or 2 later if you decide it's worthwhile.
I’m still thinking I’ll just leave every halyard and the topping lift on the mast.

That was a good idea from Way back in the thread.

Even flying the spinnaker, I am up there by the mast managing the sock so I can easily use the halyard while I am up there.

The rest of the halyards will stay put because everything is on a furler.

Same with the topping lift that can stay put.

That way the only lines that have to come inside are the control lines. And the main halyard as well so that I can reef from inside.

Then maybe the main sheet is what stays on one of the winches. For safety purposes.

Someday later when I have a bigger sail like a screecher, that could also stay on the other winch for safety purposes so I could ease that pretty easily.

So all I would be adjusting are the sheets, the dagger board control lines, the reefing lines, and probably some furling lines just by hand.
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Old 22-01-2023, 10:27   #83
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Re: The sail control table!

The secret to the Gunboats setup are the Antal organizer (tulip blocks) taking the side load off the clutches.
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Old 22-01-2023, 10:36   #84
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Re: The sail control table!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
Here is a gunboat 55. Why are they not having all the trouble we are coming up with here in this thread?

2 winches control the whole boat.

Can anyone answer that?










Looking at these pictures, maybe I donít need rope clutches. Maybe I need cam cleats for the ones that are adjusted frequently or need to be dumped in a hurry.

It looks like the rope clutches are more for the halyards or whatever in this case I think.

A. I think that looks like an abortion. And there are three guys managing the rope; singlehanders have less time to diddle around with jammers.

B. They seem to use 4 winches on other models.

C. I think most people think that few winches are a mistake.



You will ask for opinions, and then keep challenging them until you get the answer you want. Most performance boats, designed and sailed by people smarter than either of us, use more winches. Seem obvious. Four winches means one for the main, one for the genoa, one for halyards etc. during reefing, and one spare. That is the healthy minimum, determined by the racing and cruising community. I saw a Geminii Legacy with 7 jammers in front of a winch and asked the designer how you would even sail that. He said it was "for a different kind of sailor," which meant not much sailing and dock queen. It was done to save money, maximize cockpit space, and well, deny that it was a sailboat with strings.



I can't remember. Have you singlehanded a performance cat before?



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Old 22-01-2023, 10:37   #85
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Re: The sail control table!

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The secret to the Gunboats setup are the Antal organizer (tulip blocks) taking the side load off the clutches.
Yet another thing I have to steal from gunboat. Lol

I always say that I built a poor manís gun boat. And I think I will stick to that.
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Old 22-01-2023, 10:51   #86
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Re: The sail control table!

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Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
A. I think that looks like an abortion. And there are three guys managing the rope; singlehanders have less time to diddle around with jammers.

B. They seem to use 4 winches on other models.

C. I think most people think that few winches are a mistake.



You will ask for opinions, and then keep challenging them until you get the answer you want. Most performance boats, designed and sailed by people smarter than either of us, use more winches. Seem obvious. Four winches means one for the main, one for the genoa, one for halyards etc. during reefing, and one spare. That is the healthy minimum, determined by the racing and cruising community. I saw a Geminii Legacy with 7 jammers in front of a winch and asked the designer how you would even sail that. He said it was "for a different kind of sailor," which meant not much sailing and dock queen. It was done to save money, maximize cockpit space, and well, deny that it was a sailboat with strings.



I can't remember. Have you singlehanded a performance cat before?




Some of us aren’t really out to win the latest Americas cup. I’m just sailing.

I will always challenge people in these threads. That’s important. That’s how we get to a consensus. I’m not going to just accept that I need four winches. Especially when one of the highest performing Catamarans has two.

I mean that was your argument wasn’t it? That my boat is high-performance so I must have more winches? Well, no. That’s not the case. You stated it like it’s an absolute fact or something. By my pictures, no, it’s not. That’s your opinion - and I value it.

I don’t want to get into some kind of argument with you. I value your posts. You come up with good ideas. I thank you for being in the thread.

But to be honest, I’m not racing here. I’m just going from point A to point B quickly and in comfort.

I don’t have a crew of people to man all these different winches. I can only be at one at a time. So I’m not sure why I need so many.

To me, what I see in those gun boat 55 pictures is ideal. What I see in the picture you showed looks like a pain in the ass because I have to run all over the place. I’d rather have everything centralized next to the helm so I can reach it right away.

If the sailing gets so difficult that I have to be running back-and-forth to all of those winches in your picture or swapping things very quickly on the winches on the Gunboat picture, I’m not going to be sailing. Because I’m in a harbor or something.

I don’t sail through the mooring fields or in tight areas like a harbor single-handed on a boat this big. That is insane. That does not work out. That just is an insurance risk. Lol

I motor out of the harbor, I get onto my course, lock in the autohelm and then I start raising up the sails and then turn the engines off.

Hopefully, I get to stay on that same point of sail until I get to my destination.

Maybe I fall off a little bit to give way to someone else. Maybe I come up a little tighter to the wind. I don’t even adjust the sails when I’m doing that because it’s a temporary course adjustment.

I’m not out here doing insane things for YouTube. I’m just sailing a boat from point A to point B.

I’m thinking you probably have a racing background, and that’s cool. I like that. I don’t. So I don’t push the boat as hard as you probably do. I just use the sails for propulsion. They are like another engine to me.

First thing is my course. Second thing is setting sails to match it.

I’m not tacking my way up wind every 10 minutes. I’m not gybing this thing down wind.

I don’t know if you are familiar with the Long Island sound, but if I am going against the wind in the Long Island sound, I will go from Connecticut to New York to Connecticut to New York to Connecticut to New York with my tacks. Lol. I’m not out here to win races. I’m out here to be comfortable and have an enjoyable time.

I built a fast boat because there is frequently not enough wind and it sucks. So now I can sail in nice conditions instead of motoring.

I will not race this boat. Except as a joke against Grit. Ha ha. One design class.

So it’s possible that you’re looking at it from a different use case. I just want convenience. I just want to be able to sail when there is almost no wind. And I won’t be able to help but to go fast when the conditions are decent. But I’m not going to be changing course all the time. So I don’t need to deal with changing lines around constantly.

Does that make sense? I’m not disparaging your post at all. I am challenging it. Because it doesn’t appear necessary to have four winches on a performance boat. It appears optional.

PS: I have never single-handed a performance cat. I have never been on a performance cat except the one I’m sitting on right now. Challenging my experience doesn’t really make your case. I have been financially excluded from performance cats until I put in the time to make one.


Your picture with the four winches? That’s a 70 foot freaking boat. There is a world of difference between that big thing and my boat.

Here it is from another angle. I just don’t have that kind of space.

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Old 22-01-2023, 11:07   #87
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Re: The sail control table!

Retraction from the last post I made:

It DOES seem ideal to have 3 or 4 winches. But I’m going to leave one or two of those on the mast and have two inside the boat.

Like I have been saying, halyards would be controlled at the mast. Since they are not used. Only the main halyard would come in. That was an important idea from the very beginning of the thread. And it has stuck.

So the 2 winches we are talking about are really 3 or 4 winches when you count the ones that are doing the halyards up on the mast.

Maybe we are having more of a misunderstanding than anything else.

I’m talking about the winches inside. Two of those seems plenty adequate. Like the gunboat 55. Outside different story. There should be more for the halyards.
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Old 22-01-2023, 11:44   #88
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Re: The sail control table!

Saw in one of your posts that you wanna bring the main halyard in for ease of reefing, in that case you will need to bring the topping lift in too, makes reefing a whole lot easier.

You should be glad that the riggers are not taking control of your running rigging, if I built a boat like yours I would want to rig it my way (within reason with the designerís plans), cuz only I know how I intend to use it. There a few things that I changed on my current boat and it has made my life a whole lot easier, I always think why wouldnít they have thought about this from the beginning but then others would feel the same about their preferences. This is an important subject, take your time and build mock-ups and try some shadow sailing and different maneuvers.

Your plan about going from A to B with consistent and favorable conditions will not always work, prepare for the worst even if you donít encounter it, see if you will be able to douse all sails in a hurry with the rigging you are planning.

I primarily sail in LIS and have been through a few nasty squalls, sometimes you donít have room to bear off, in that case you will need to go upwind with reduced sails, again, ease of rigging will come into play.

Lastly, you said you will just go at a leisurely pace and give way to others, you gotta decide if you are a sailor or not as I have yet to meet a sailor (one thatís sailing a very capable boat) that would just let the other pass by him.

See you in Long Island Sound
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Old 24-01-2023, 06:18   #89
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Re: The sail control table!

Ah ha!!!!!


They do make something else aside from the low friction rings better suited to the application.



If I use that at the deck level it will keep the friction down.
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Old 24-01-2023, 07:17   #90
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Re: The sail control table!

Yes, but there are a lot simpler (stronger and cheaper) ways of doing it when running multiple lines than individual deck blocks. Picture that, but stacked with whatever number of sheaves and cheeks needed running on the same axle.

Keep in mind that this multi block setup implies the lines are running from the mast inline. Others would need different angles since these need to be fed straight.

Another option is to do the same as a mast base deck plate. Mount this on a strong shelf below deck and use conventional blocks to lead the lines aft. Think of any boats mast base, but now drop that below deck however deep you want it. There would just be holes in the deck where the lines need to be fed through.
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