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Old 21-01-2023, 10:39   #46
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Re: The sail control table!

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Originally Posted by Knotical View Post
I would recommend at least two winches and possibly a third for redundancy.

I like mainsheet and working jibsheet on dedicated winches, if routed through rope clutches it won’t be easy to let go (with control) when a squall hits. You will be thankful for that extra winch when reducing the mainsail with the number of lines involved.

If your jib is on a furler it’s halyard can be raised and cleated at the mast.

Surely your cat’s designer has designed the rigging even when you are making modification to its routing - how many winches does he specify?

Do you know the sizes of all the various lines or you have to calculate that too?
I’m going to agree with that. I think it needs to winches. There is no choice. And may be the third. Everything else is redundant for the most part on this boat so that makes me feel more secure. This set up would be pretty rough if a winch decided to pack it in on me and I only had one.

It also sounds pretty nice to be able to ease the main sheet in a more controlled way using a winch. When sailing, I could just leave that rope clutch open, leave it on the winch, which is something you’re not really supposed to do, and be ready for squalls if necessary. Of course I should have already reached before then but you never know. This boat flips over easy. So the more ways I can release that sheet the better.

The designer has a bunch of winches. But it’s a completely different set up. He’s running everything aft. I’m concentrating them all into one small area so I need less winches for that. I mean, I do have the same lines coming in as every other Catamaran like this does. There’s nothing really different. What’s different is that I’m concentrating them all into one small area.

I’m not going to calculate the lines. I’m going to leave that to the Riggers. They know what’s up. I also have a sail plan of course. But the rig is slightly different from plan. Ever so slightly. I would rather have the riggers suggest that to me than try to figure it out myself. I have to outsource something. Ha ha. Trying to outsource as much as I can here. I’m just building a table.
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Old 21-01-2023, 10:40   #47
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Re: The sail control table!

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Originally Posted by JebLostInSpace View Post
I wonder if you can reduce the spread angle by stacking 2 arrays of clutches vertically then? 2 layers of lines coming in with a slight offset. The bottom layer has clutches aft by the winch, the top layer has clutches a little further forward so they don't interfere with each other. Just a quick idea, I'm not sure if I've ever seen a layout like that, or if the spread angle you have is large enough to worry about it anyway.
Whoa! Thatís a little stroke of genius there. I will check into this. Iím not sure how that would all work out the way the lines go through the deck organizer and stuff. I will have to see that one when things are a little bit more together. But thatís quite a possibility.
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Old 21-01-2023, 10:49   #48
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Re: The sail control table!

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Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
Whoa! Thatís a little stroke of genius there. I will check into this. Iím not sure how that would all work out the way the lines go through the deck organizer and stuff. I will have to see that one when things are a little bit more together. But thatís quite a possibility.
Deck organizers stacked vertically on top of each other are available but not rope clutches, for those you would have to make a sturdy platform for the top row having enough forward clearance so as not to restrict the bottom clutchesí handles.
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Old 21-01-2023, 13:34   #49
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Re: The sail control table!

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Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
If it is truly the case that I could use one winch andjust replace it more often I would be very happy with that option.

it would simplify a lot.

I have seen plenty of installations where the winch is off-center from the rope clutches because the rope clutches are in an array. So just by definition they can’t be lined up perfectly.

Hopefully the Rigger will have enough knowledge in this area to steer me right.

for now I have to make the table. But I don’t want to make the table and have it be wrong. That’s the reason I’m trying to look forward to just how many winches there are.
The PO of my X sailed quite actively with the two geny winches 180 deg out of alignment and the main sheet can come up from the deck from different locations (it's the German system) and no-one was particularly bothered until I checked out of curiosity. Had I not checked and/or not realized then it would still be the way it was then now, 10 years later.

But the central bearing will be under a relatively light load when the winch is installed correctly while the load it will be under will increase to twice whatever the load is on the line being pulled on if 180 deg misaligned. I posted something on this in the past which was not received with a lot of interest:

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...on-224281.html

(and the reason for posting at the time was to point out that this was after picking up the boat, refurbished from the yard, so not to assume anything, even with new boats.)

Anyway, I understand why the manufacturer obviously recommends what it recommends but a slight misalignment will be OK. 180 degrees is too much though.

On the subject of aligning the line after it emerges from the cleat, on my boat I have 7 cleats on each side of the coach roof (also called the piano) and for those cleats which are not nicely aligned with the winch there is a horizontal 2" or so diameter wheel placed strategically around which a line can be led before making its way to the winch. So the angle of the line as it leaves the cleat is acceptable under all circumstances. And if I want to pass a line from starboard to port (where I happen to have my one electric winch) I will simply loop round the starboard winch and continue to port. Only temporarily of course because this would be across the doorway.

So note that the electric winch can take loads varying over more than 90 degrees. And I really don't care about that.

But in your case, you do need redundancy. Two winches as a minimum. With lines under tension you must have the use of a winch to release them (AFAIK, in my case for sure). So a winch failure would not be helpful. Most likely to happen at the least appropriate moment.
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Old 21-01-2023, 13:42   #50
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Re: The sail control table!

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Originally Posted by HeinSdL View Post
The PO of my X sailed quite actively with the two geny winches 180 deg out of alignment and the main sheet can come up from the deck from different locations (it's the German system) and no-one was particularly bothered until I checked out of curiosity. Had I not checked and/or not realized then it would still be the way it was then now, 10 years later.

But the central bearing will be under a relatively light load when the winch is installed correctly while the load it will be under will increase to twice whatever the load is on the line being pulled on if 180 deg misaligned. I posted something on this in the past which was not received with a lot of interest:

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...on-224281.html

(and the reason for posting at the time was to point out that this was after picking up the boat, refurbished from the yard, so not to assume anything, even with new boats.)

Anyway, I understand why the manufacturer obviously recommends what it recommends but a slight misalignment will be OK. 180 degrees is too much though. On the subject of aligning the line after it emerges from the cleat, on my boat I have 7 cleats on each side of the coach roof (also called the piano) and for those cleats which are not nicely aligned with the winch there is a horizontal 2" or so diameter wheel placed strategically around which a line can be led before making its way to the winch. So the angle of the line as it leaves the cleat is acceptable under all circumstances even if I want to pass a line from starboard to port (where I happen to have my one electric winch).

So note that the electric winch can take loads varying over more than 90 degrees. And I really don't care about that.

But in your case, you do need redundancy. Two winches as a minimum. With lines under tension you must have the use of a winch to release them (AFAIK, in my case for sure). So a winch failure would not be helpful. Most likely to happen at the least appropriate moment.

I think this is the final piece of the puzzle. Good thread! I got pretty nervous in the beginning but it seems like between all of these different options, this can be done no problem.

In the case where the lineup is really bad, an open turning block could be used.

Thank you for sharing these ideas. This makes a lot of sense.
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Old 21-01-2023, 14:56   #51
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Re: The sail control table!

Giving the highest load lines the best lead angle is definitely a good solution. The lead angle will be less critical for the lighter loaded lines.

For the final decision on 2 vs 3 winches, think about past sailing experience, etc. and try to picture what lines you're likely going to adjust frequently. That might help determine how many winches would be required to avoid switching lines on and off winches just to switch back 5 minutes later.
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Old 21-01-2023, 15:17   #52
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Re: The sail control table!

You can’t side load clutches, you need a tulip to turn the line into the winch.
https://www.riggerne.com/products/60...-oe60-sheaves/

https://youtu.be/k_INk_yhF4w
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Old 21-01-2023, 15:35   #53
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Re: The sail control table!

A few thoughts about the last flurry of posts:

- Donít give up the forward cockpit!! Iím personally not a fan of forward cockpits, but Iíve spoken to a couple of crews that have them and they love them. For reefing and working at the mast they are priceless. In gentler conditions they have you right in the middle of the action, so you can easily see what youíre doing as youíre adjusting and trimming. East comms when working with the anchor or a mooring. The downsides are wet in stronger winds, lots of line guides needed to get everything there, and poorer visibility of the mainsail and of the rear corners for docking (both had a rear bulkhead wheel and engine controls for docking). Neither had an interior sail control table, but both had the mainsheet led inside and often used the interior helm station for watch keeping and manoeuvring in shitty weather.
- Harken and others already have a solution for bad line angles caused by big banks of clutches: crossover blocks https://www.harken.com.au/en/shop/cr...ossover-block/. A bunch of these in front of your winches and youíll take care of all the off-angle leads.
- I havenít seen a plan diagram of your mast base, forward cockpit, nearby decks, and front part of the salon. That would really help. Also, Chris White cats have been forward cockpit boats for a long time - there must be heaps of photos of them that should help you with the layout design. Hereís a 55: https://au.yachtworld.com/yacht/2003...ic-55-8405957/
- Almost every line on your boat will need to be adjusted using a winch, thatís just a fact on a 50í cat. Very few lines can be hand adjusted under load without a winch (on our boat, only the running backstay pullback lines and the lazy jacks are not used with winches). Not only do you need the power to bring in, you also need to let out under control.
- Daggerboards are mostly fully up, but upwind and reaching you will be adjusting. If theyíre easy up then youíll need power to put them down, or vice versa. You probably have two depth settings: lower speeds maximum depth and higher speeds medium deep: adjusting under load takes power. As well, you want to adjust them centrally and not have to go out to the edges of your hulls.
- Mainsail sheet should be 2:1 or at most 3:1 as you need to be able to throw off the sheet in a hurry. Ours is 2:1 and led to both sides. When sailing we lead both sheets to their respective winch and cleat them in the self-tailer, and leave the clutch open. We often lead the lazy sheet around the wrong way after the self tailer wrap so a pull of the lazy sheet releases the sheet from the self tailer and lets it run free (via the turns on the winch, which we always limit to two).
- With two winches on either side of our cockpit we are often freeing a winch of one line for another line, then once thatís done putting the previous line back on the winch. I really canít see how youíll do with fewer than at least two mast winches and two sheet winches. With lots of crossover blocks you should design so as to be able to use the mast winches for sheets as well. On our boat we canít use our mast winches for anything else so they sit idle a lot; you should be able to be more efficient with their use.

If possible, take your time, think it through, create mock ups, donít build anything until youíre satisfied - the design of your sail and rig and deck controls will determine the usability of your boat forever forward. I think I can appreciate how done with this you are at this point of your build, and I wish I was closer so that I could give you hug.
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Old 21-01-2023, 15:44   #54
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Re: The sail control table!

Just out if curiosity, how do you keep the interior reasonably dry with an inside sail control station?

I would think it might introduce a lot of humidity into the inside (never good because it can easily lead to mold).
Water running down the mast in a tropical downpour or storm, wet ropes if all kinds.

I see that these stations have been designed and built, but how do you deal with this?
Is the complete enclosed bridgedeck than considered a wet space?

Safety wise and comfort wise I get the benefits, but from the humidity aspect I don't.
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Old 21-01-2023, 16:16   #55
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Re: The sail control table!

My opinion
Each set of clutchís should go to a single winch so the entry angle is straight or nearly so
Two sets of clutchís should require two winchís minimum
One for each set
Assuming you donít need to pull or release two lines on a set at once
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Old 21-01-2023, 16:17   #56
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Re: The sail control table!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knotical View Post
Deck organizers stacked vertically on top of each other are available but not rope clutches, for those you would have to make a sturdy platform for the top row having enough forward clearance so as not to restrict the bottom clutchesí handles.


Donít forget that a stacked organizer canít take full rated load as the bottom one can
You have to derate the set on top
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Old 21-01-2023, 16:22   #57
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Re: The sail control table!

Regarding not 100% alignment of the ropes to the winch.
The problem might get far smaller when the winch is a bit oversized and therefore meant to deal with higher loads than the once actually occurring.
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Old 21-01-2023, 18:16   #58
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Re: The sail control table!

Has anyone ever had a winch fail because the main bearing wore out? I ask because they are enormous in the winches I've opened up, and I doubt could be over-loaded before breaking something else in the system, especially with the minimal duty cycle compared to bearings in 99% of other applications. I would make sure to keep them lubricated and otherwise ignore the advice about the orientation. Easy to watch for grinding/excessive play/strange noises and catch any potential problem.
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Old 21-01-2023, 18:49   #59
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Re: The sail control table!

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Originally Posted by Franziska View Post
Just out if curiosity, how do you keep the interior reasonably dry with an inside sail control station?

I would think it might introduce a lot of humidity into the inside (never good because it can easily lead to mold).
Water running down the mast in a tropical downpour or storm, wet ropes if all kinds.

I see that these stations have been designed and built, but how do you deal with this?
Is the complete enclosed bridgedeck than considered a wet space?

Safety wise and comfort wise I get the benefits, but from the humidity aspect I don't.

There is a lot of thinking before I can answer some of the other posts.

However, this post addresses a topic that has been in my mind ever since I deleted the forward cockpit.

I still have four huge drain holes where my forward cockpit used to be. This is the area that the sail control table will be going in. Right where the forward cockpit was.

What I plan to do is use some rubber sheeting on the outside of the boat around the lines as they enter the salon. That should keep most of the direct rain out. But certainly water will get in. The idea will be to have the water run down the table and go right out to large drain holes that are in the bridgedeck floor already.

There will also definitely be wet lines from time to time when it’s raining. Or at least when it’s raining and I am sailing. Which isn’t really all that often because I tend to not go out when the weather is crappy. I usually wait for a good weather. But it will happen. There will be wet lines hanging around drying inside the salon. But most of the time when it’s raining I will be at anchor. So, the lines will be inside and dry.

At the dock my boat does not have fantastic ventilation, but at anchor and on moorings, my boat has incredible ventilation. There is a lot of wind that blows through if I decide to open up the windows.

So, things stay very dry in this boat. As long as it’s not sitting in a swamp in Florida like it was, mold doesn’t seem to grow in here. It doesn’t have a “boat smell” (as I designed it with no engines inside, lots of ventilation and no hidden areas for mold to grow).

Mold doesn’t grow in here. Things dry out instead because there’s so much airflow.

But, it will remain to be seen how well the lines dry out if I’m sailing in the rain.

I also expect wind driven rain to make its way in a bit. I still need to reason out how to completely button up that area so cold wind doesn’t blow through if not wanted.

Really no different than an anchor locker in the V berth in a monohull though.. Except mine has a lot better ventilation.

I also think if sailing in the rain, it would have got a lot more wet in here opening that forward cockpit door then just some damp lines. Rain would pour in and I’d be absolutely soaked with wet clothes to dry off too.

So this is actually the drier solution in those “sailing in driving rain” conditions.

PS: the mast is outside and won’t let water into the boat.
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Old 21-01-2023, 21:46   #60
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Re: The sail control table!

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Originally Posted by Franziska View Post
Regarding not 100% alignment of the ropes to the winch.
The problem might get far smaller when the winch is a bit oversized and therefore meant to deal with higher loads than the once actually occurring.


Itís not the winch so much but the lateral off the clutchís
Also if self tailing there is a specific angle relative to the winch for the self tailer to work correctly
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