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Old 21-01-2023, 07:10   #31
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Re: The sail control table!

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Originally Posted by rslifkin View Post
Could you possibly make the table rectangular instead of tapering the front part in? That should give enough room to fit 3 winches. And if you can group the lower load lines, 1 of the winches can be smaller than the other 2 to save space.

5 lines to a winch should be manageable angle-wise. I routinely see 4 rope clutches and corresponding lines in front of a single winch on production boats. So I expect 5 will also work acceptably, provided the clutches are far enough ahead of the winch to keep the angles small.
I could. But I donít like the design look of a rectangular table or the amount of space it takes up.

I need to at least trim that end of the table down a little bit. Kind of sucks because Iím going to have to glue a whole bunch of core together to get that side of the table back to a wider size at the part closest to the camera. The winch side.
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Old 21-01-2023, 07:11   #32
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Re: The sail control table!

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Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
As far as grouping lower load lines...

The dagger board lines that push them down will have almost no effort at all. They will be like shoestrings essentially.

The jib is pretty small. Itís just a blade jib. Fits in the fore triangle.

The main sheet will be a beast although I hope to have good mechanical advantage on that.

The spinnaker lines will have a pretty good pull.

The someday screecher lines will also.

iím hoping reefing lines are almost as easy as the dagger board control lines. I know they wonít be. But I hope theyíre not that difficult.

The traveler lines shouldnít be too hard either. If the traveler is working properly.
Why not control the dagger boards with a set of cleats or jammers next to the boards?
Seems unnecessary complicated to lead them all the way to a central control.

You will not adjust them as often and if you take briefly a bit of load of the boards they should be really easy to adjust.

Regarding reefing lines, I would suspect them to be pretty heavy loaded.

I'm surprised the boats designer does not have a drawing of suitable setup, but then again if everything was designed for a forward cockpit...

I am not a big fan of wet and windy forward cockpits myself.
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Old 21-01-2023, 07:13   #33
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Re: The sail control table!

In the mockup you showed with the 2 winches, try to measure the worst-case angles from each group of lines with the rope clutches placed as well as they can be for winch alignment. The pull definitely doesn't have to be 100% perfect direction-wise, so if it at least comes up close, I'd call it good enough and just go with it.


The dagger boards is also a good point. Those might not even need a winch, or might be ok with a small winch, so I'd keep those as "most able to be moved around".
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Old 21-01-2023, 08:11   #34
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Re: The sail control table!

I'll throw in $0.02 worth of my thinking, without getting into the technical concerns that others on this thread are much more qualified to diiscuss.

I simply prefer in 99% of cases to have more pieces of smaller gear vs. fewer pieces of bigger gear. I find that smaller gear is easier to maintain and repair, and replacing individual components is much cheaper that way. So if it were me, I'd avoid the single, gigantic winch or capstan that can handle all the loads from all the angles. Because if it develops a problem, you have no redundancy and it's probably going to be a bear to work on. I'd have my biggest winch be sized to handle the largest load, and a number of secondary winches sized to handle the smaller loads. But that's really just some very general advice coming at it from a less technical angle. Feel free to disregard if that doesn't fit with your philosophy.
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Old 21-01-2023, 09:04   #35
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Re: The sail control table!

On one hand I would be inclined to have at least two winches, but that may be simply because I have never sailed a large boat that did not have a full array of winches. More important, I think, is the simple fact that it is difficult to accurately forecast how this will all play out when you actually start sailing. Most of us have probably found the need to modify the rigging in our boats to suit our personal needs and preferences. From that standpoint, my suggestion would be to design your control area so as to accommodate as wide a range as possible of future modifications. If you think one winch will work, try it, but certainly make sure you have all the structures in place to add more in the future.
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Old 21-01-2023, 09:21   #36
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Re: The sail control table!

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Originally Posted by Franziska View Post
Why not control the dagger boards with a set of cleats or jammers next to the boards?
Seems unnecessary complicated to lead them all the way to a central control.

You will not adjust them as often and if you take briefly a bit of load of the boards they should be really easy to adjust.

Regarding reefing lines, I would suspect them to be pretty heavy loaded.

I'm surprised the boats designer does not have a drawing of suitable setup, but then again if everything was designed for a forward cockpit...

I am not a big fan of wet and windy forward cockpits myself.
So the site went down or something when I was trying to post.

Not a bad idea to control the boards nearby the boards. You’re right. They will stay down all the time. If there’s room, I’ll bring them in. But if not that’s a good alternative. The idea of bringing it all in though is so I don’t have to have as much danger up on deck. Single handing. So there is a trade-off having to go out to the board every time I want to change it. A reasonable idea though.

The designer does have drawings. They have drawings of an aft cockpit with a raised seat that your head sticks through the roof. A little bit of a layer cake type thing. Not my cup of tea. I did have the forward cockpit built but I deleted it. So now I have the sail control table in the salon. I realized I am also not a big fan of the open forward cockpit. I don’t want to get wet either. Or go outside. I’ve already spent too much of my life out there in the elements.

I have attached a couple of pictures to help you understand that. And I think there was another guy on here that was not understanding it as well. So some pictures will help.

I’m doing it like what is attached. Except one table.

Interestingly enough, nobody else seems to worry about these angles between the rope clutches and the winches. They are a bit out of whack in both of these pictures.
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Old 21-01-2023, 09:25   #37
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Re: The sail control table!

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Originally Posted by rslifkin View Post
In the mockup you showed with the 2 winches, try to measure the worst-case angles from each group of lines with the rope clutches placed as well as they can be for winch alignment. The pull definitely doesn't have to be 100% perfect direction-wise, so if it at least comes up close, I'd call it good enough and just go with it.


The dagger boards is also a good point. Those might not even need a winch, or might be ok with a small winch, so I'd keep those as "most able to be moved around".

OK. Measuring now.

Edit: The worst I could possibly do is a 28-30 degree spread coming off the winch contact point.
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Old 21-01-2023, 09:52   #38
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Re: The sail control table!

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Originally Posted by JebLostInSpace View Post
I'll throw in $0.02 worth of my thinking, without getting into the technical concerns that others on this thread are much more qualified to diiscuss.

I simply prefer in 99% of cases to have more pieces of smaller gear vs. fewer pieces of bigger gear. I find that smaller gear is easier to maintain and repair, and replacing individual components is much cheaper that way. So if it were me, I'd avoid the single, gigantic winch or capstan that can handle all the loads from all the angles. Because if it develops a problem, you have no redundancy and it's probably going to be a bear to work on. I'd have my biggest winch be sized to handle the largest load, and a number of secondary winches sized to handle the smaller loads. But that's really just some very general advice coming at it from a less technical angle. Feel free to disregard if that doesn't fit with your philosophy.

That is just fine advice actually. Thatís a good point. Redundancy. Smaller items. A good post.
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Old 21-01-2023, 09:53   #39
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Re: The sail control table!

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Originally Posted by Brioche View Post
On one hand I would be inclined to have at least two winches, but that may be simply because I have never sailed a large boat that did not have a full array of winches. More important, I think, is the simple fact that it is difficult to accurately forecast how this will all play out when you actually start sailing. Most of us have probably found the need to modify the rigging in our boats to suit our personal needs and preferences. From that standpoint, my suggestion would be to design your control area so as to accommodate as wide a range as possible of future modifications. If you think one winch will work, try it, but certainly make sure you have all the structures in place to add more in the future.

Another good general idea.
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Old 21-01-2023, 10:23   #40
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Re: The sail control table!

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Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
OK. Measuring now.

Edit: The worst I could possibly do is a 28-30 degree spread coming off the winch contact point.
I think what’s interesting about the worst I could possibly do is that it doesn’t have much at all to do with the winches. (Assuming 2 winches)

That’s counterintuitive but true.

The spread of the angle has everything to do with how many rope clutches there are. That’s it.

The table can still be the way I have it. It doesn’t need to be made into a rectangle. That doesn’t help the situation at all. That doesn’t change the spread angle. The number of rope clutches in each array is what changes the spread angle.

As a very extreme example, picture of the winches touching each other. Same spread angle. Now picture them at the edges of a rectangular table. Same spread angle.

Interestingly, it also doesn’t matter if there is one winch or two. If that single winch is a reversing winch. Same spread angle if it can go both ways.

However, if it’s a standard one-way winch, then the spread angle is enormous. And that would be no good.
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Old 21-01-2023, 10:27   #41
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Re: The sail control table!

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Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
I think whatís interesting about the worst I could possibly do is that it doesnít have much at all to do with the winches. (Assuming 2 winches)

Thatís counterintuitive but true.

The spread of the angle has everything to do with how many rope clutches there are. Thatís it.

The table can still be the way I have it. It doesnít need to be made into a rectangle. That doesnít help the situation at all. That doesnít change the spread angle. The number of rope clutches in each array is what changes the spread angle.

Increasing the number of winches would potentially reduce the angles by breaking the rope clutches up into more groups (of fewer clutches each). But depending on what lines come from where and which ones need more vs less pull, that may not be practical.

One option would be to do 3 winches. A big one on each side and a smaller one in the middle. You do a port/stbd split on the high load lines, then a few of the lightest loaded lines from each side continue further inboard to the center group. The smaller center winch would reduce the extra width required on the table.
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Old 21-01-2023, 10:28   #42
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Re: The sail control table!

I would recommend at least two winches and possibly a third for redundancy.

I like mainsheet and working jibsheet on dedicated winches, if routed through rope clutches it wonít be easy to let go (with control) when a squall hits. You will be thankful for that extra winch when reducing the mainsail with the number of lines involved.

If your jib is on a furler itís halyard can be raised and cleated at the mast.

Surely your catís designer has designed the rigging even when you are making modification to its routing - how many winches does he specify?

Do you know the sizes of all the various lines or you have to calculate that too?
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Old 21-01-2023, 10:29   #43
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Re: The sail control table!

One other thing that comes out of the geometry and the pictures is as follows:

You could set it up so that the highly loaded lines were not at an angle. Because some of the rope clutches will line up perfectly with the winch. About three of them in each bank will be almost in perfect alignment.

Those could make for six rope clutches that can take high loads.

As the angle increases and it gets to the area where you are not supposed to really be loading the winch from the side with that much force, you could have the easier lighter things at the higher angles. Things like the small gym sheet. Things like the dagger board control lines.
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Old 21-01-2023, 10:32   #44
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Re: The sail control table!

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Originally Posted by rslifkin View Post
Increasing the number of winches would potentially reduce the angles by breaking the rope clutches up into more groups (of fewer clutches each). But depending on what lines come from where and which ones need more vs less pull, that may not be practical.

One option would be to do 3 winches. A big one on each side and a smaller one in the middle. You do a port/stbd split on the high load lines, then a few of the lightest loaded lines from each side continue further inboard to the center group. The smaller center winch would reduce the extra width required on the table.

This is actually getting fun. I like a little puzzle like this. This is an interesting one.

True. As you increase the number of winches greater than two, you can start reducing the angle. But interestingly, one winch and 2 winches (assuming the single winch is reversible) provide the same spread angle.

I like the math that comes out of this. It’s fun.

But then also as you start to put too many winches, you reach a limit where they get too small to handle the lines as well. Because there will be some thick lines for some of this stuff.

With a bunch of these ideas and all of the flexibility that can be had, whether that means putting halyards up on the mast, adding extra winches, this all is starting to sound doable.

Man. I hate when threads give me a heart attack. I was in a rough place last night reading this thread. I’m glad it turned around and now seems to be possible. I can at least glass this table up and know it will be right.
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Old 21-01-2023, 10:32   #45
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Re: The sail control table!

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The spread of the angle has everything to do with how many rope clutches there are. Thatís it.
I wonder if you can reduce the spread angle by stacking 2 arrays of clutches vertically then? 2 layers of lines coming in with a slight offset. The bottom layer has clutches aft by the winch, the top layer has clutches a little further forward so they don't interfere with each other. Just a quick idea, I'm not sure if I've ever seen a layout like that, or if the spread angle you have is large enough to worry about it anyway.
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